Posted by Diarmuid on November 01, 2001 at 08:53:46:
In Reply to: Irresponsibility posted by Mikko on October 31, 2001 at 12:06:30:
If it's the same outcome no matter what you do, then that behaviour isn't really irresponsible.
I mean the kind of needless wasteful behaviour prevalent in western capitalist countries, primarily the USA. People who have high enough salaries to live well who still go into huge debt, typically to credit card firms (who legally charge huge interest). It's doubly illogical: spending more than you earn on crap that you can't sell later if things get ugly *and* going into debt at extremely high rates.
My roommate is hugely in plastic debt. He could have borrowed that money from other sources (bank, credit union) at much less ruinous rate. If he had he'd be free now (in fact he's locked in til 2003, fucked if he loses his job, can't ever afford the vacation he so desperately needs). Aside from about five CDs he truly likes, he has nothing to show for that short spending binge (except for an expanded waistline, which depresses the hell out of him).
Worst thing is, that's tame by American standards.
To me, it proves that most people are not capitalists. Capital is fundamentally spare money: the extra that's left after you feed, house and pamper yourself which you invest to make more money later.
If the people of western society were capitalists, they would spend less than they earn, wait five years, then whoop it up on the fruits of their investments. I think I remember some financial discipline study that showed how a man on a modest salary could live, eat, dress well, take a few foreign vacations per year, invest a small portion of his wages and be a millionaire by 35 (of course, that may have involved him only buying microsoft stock but you get the idea).
That is the logical, natural way to act if the profit system is truly in accordance with human nature.
Aside from some fives (and types with a natural connection to five) this does not happen. Americans in fact spend money they don't have like the bombs are dropping tomorrow, and waste their lives working 70-hour 7-day weeks paying it off, driving themselves into early graves.
Europeans are increasingly doing likewise. And, unlike the poor bastards in the ex-Soviet states, they *have* a real choice.
: If 'irresponsibility' means general non-caring about most things, the ex-Soviet areas claim the prize. Not because the people would inherently be bad that way, but historically there it has often been just plain wasted effort to care about anything, because it didn't make any difference.
: For example, if something is collectively owned, it belongs to anyone and no one. If you take some, don't take care of some and whatever, who cares? General non-caring attitude towards everything collective and loyality towards those you know, that was the norm there.
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: Mikko