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Re: 4 & 9

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Posted by Flower Pagan (68.35.114.160) on November 29, 2002 at 00:41:56:

In Reply to: Re: 4 & 9 posted by Flower Pagan (68.35.114.160) on November 29, 2002 at 00:10:21:

Let's talk about fighting.

Emily, 4, 6, 8 are in the reactive triad and they all want to fight.
It is not a good or bad, right or wrong thing. It is a personality thing.

Well, 2, 7, 9 are all in the positive outlook group.
However, type 2 are known to be histronic like type 7, but 9 are not that way, unlike the other two members, 9 don't want to fight.

So far, you have 2, 4, 6, 7, and 8 to arque with (but 9 wants peace).

Type 1 does not like to argue, and it makes them madder when you argue with them because they feel they are right and the only one who is right, so when you argue, you are giving him the message that he is wrong. Check it out in the Enneagram book and you will see it is there also. I also know from personal experiences in dealing with non-healthy type 1. They can be very much like Bartholomew! You can fight with them, but they would only criticize you and put you down and reinforce a 4 since of feeling inadeguate to your self-esteem is not worth having. A 9 would just ignore them and move on to doing what they want to do any way.

5 don't want to deal with emotionalism and irrationalism, so they don't want to fight either. So, you can't fight with 1, 5 and 9. Type 3 loves to debate, but they don't like to argue because that makes him feel like a failure in the relationship. They like it to be positive, enjoyable and productive towards success. They are fun to be around! So, 1, 3, 5, and 9 are not good candidates for arquing. A 9w8 that is connecting to 6 may arque with you, which is when I arqued the most. lol

Arguing with an non-healthy 1 is like a spiritual yoga and meditation lover trying to prove their way of life is valid to a type 1, when they will not hear you or listen to you because you are a heretic, and he is right and you are always and forever wrong. Read the argument between Bartholomew and Epoxy over me and you will see it played out, but replace the word heretic with stupic. Noticed, he is the only one who is right and everybody who disagrees with him is wrong. That is what it is like to arque with type 1 (black and white thinking). In the old days, if you did not agree with them, they will call you a witch and burn you to the stake.

Emily, do you like the stability and peace that he brings into the relationship? Tell him how you feel, honestly and openly, about how it makes you feel when he does not fight back without attacking him, but just speak in the "I" position and not the "you..., you...,you..." If you want to write to me Emily, you have my email, if you prefer privacy of not being attack by insensitivity. He is just as sensative as you are, except he does not show it outwardly as you do. His feelings goes deep within. He may not care a whole lot about what others think, but he values you and cares about what you think. If he is being very lazy and withdrawn being a couch potato, he is not feeling very good inside!

When he is happy, he is productive and smiling. Type 9 accepts you as you are and understands you, even though they may not express it. They mostly understand whatever you share with them of who you are. He probably feels rejection by your anger, which is not unusual. Read more about 9 and relationships.

Hey, I am beginning to wonder is froggy a 4 because it sounds like our relationship. Here is what Riso have to say about 4 and 9 relationships.

4 and 9 relationships

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/4and9.asp

Flower Pagan

A flower a day will keep the sadness away, hopefully!

> Emily, my bestfriend is a 4w3, and she can relate to you with her 9w1 boyfriend. 9w1 are more quiet than I am because I also have a 8 wing. He probably don't feel secure enough to "rock the boat" with you, in fear of losing the connection or bond that he has with you. Intensity could look like choas to us 9 who wants peace and harmony, more so to a 9w1! When my sweety start fussing, the first thing I want to do is leave and tune out on the Internet in my own peaceful world and wait for him to calm down. I do appreciate his efforts to talk with me more calmly and rationally.

> It does not seem logical to fight and end up saying things that could destroy the loving bond that we treasure so very much. I just called my friend, and I did ask about her relationship of 3 years and he still doesn't fight with her. Have your read Riso's book "The Wisdom of the Enneagram" concerning 9w1? They don't fight. I read that to my friend, so she can learn how to tell when he is angry and she laugh. She could not believe that was his way of showing anger. lol I would quote it, but I misplaced my book. It was so miled that she could not believe it. lol

> Yes, us 9 can be very "in the present" oriented, yet sometimes, our personal past may creep up in our memories. The past is gone and there is nothing we can do to change that, and the future well, I may have more interests in the future than a 9w1 void of the 8 wing. Emily, don't hate me, but I am late a lot too, but I have improved over the years! If you want him to be on time, you have to put an earlier time in his head. Instead, of saying be ready at 10 am, but tell him an earlier time, like 9:30 am. If he is ready early, then that is a great opportunity to spend time together before the event or appointment. MOre than likely, he will be ready on time.

> It does not mean that we do not care. Not at all. Froggy, told me that he is leaving work at 5:30, which was early and unexpected. I was on the computer posting at that time and continued to do so. By the time, I was finished posting, it was 5:30 pm or later. So, I finally rushed into the showers and got dressed and was so glad that I was finished before he got home. Instead of telling me when he is coming home, he told me when he is leaving work, which made the time earlier in my head. He is clever, isn't he! lol

> Emily, you don't want him to fight with you, do you really? Well, my friend was with her man for 3 years, and he still doesn't fight with her. If she wants him to leave, he just leave without a fuss. He is not a sexual variant, so he is not going to have 2 like qualities of relational. I don't know what variant is your boyfriend is, but I have a question for you, could you live with a man that doesn't not want to fight, and it is not in his personality to fight? He has components of 1 and 9, which are the 2 ennetypes that feels anger to be an undesirable element in a relationship and within themselves. Can you live with that? It is the 8 wing that brings me to fight back, once in a while. He probably don't feel like it is going to do him any good to fight with you in the long run.

> He would probably talk to you when you calm down and talk rationally with him in a peaceful sort of way. Froggy wispered in my ears today, when we were in the house alone and the peacefulness of his tone, just made me feel more responsive and at ease. I wonder where did he find that technique from. If you have broke up with him or have rejected him as my friend did, that will not make him feel the security that fighting will not destroy the relationship. You have a right to be who you are and your feelings are valid. Have you tried writing him letters?

> I have talked to her boyfriend before and he have a different way of processing information because he is very similar to being like a 5, like your boyfriend! He was my friend, and I introduced them to each other, so I understand him. He does not relate to emotionalism, like 5, he is more a logical or practical thinker. Sometimes, I am more effective in getting him to do things that he feels is a waste of time because I tell him the logic of why he should do it. They are both highly intelligent, but she is more feeling and he is more thinking. I wish I knew how to get him to argue with her, but I don't want to arque either. lol I believe it is better to be rational, but it is not a matter of right or wrong styles of communications because both are valid. It is a personality thing. Check it out in that book about 9w1 and see does it describe him as it did her boyfriend.

> What if he never fight with you, what would you do? Can you live with him being that way? Does he know the enneagram and understand the nature of both personalities that are in the relationship with each other? Awareness does help. Have you ever wrote him a letter and told him how you felt in a non-threaten to the bond sort of way?

> Flower Pagan

> Even the flowers argue with the weeds and said "go away, you are killing the grass". lol

>
> > > Since you are a 4, doesn't it bother you when he wants to keep the peace and you want to discuss it with a little intensity at times?

> > Yes, that bothers me. I mean, it gets to the point where the only "intensity" I want out of him is to like, pick out the toothpaste or something. He can't do those things. He just doesn't care about little things like that. You can imagine my frustration when it comes time to make big decisions that affect both of us, and he can't help. He is extremely, maybe to an unhealthy point, focused on what is happening right here right now. Not 5 hours from now, not 2 minutes ago, RIGHT NOW. He's late a lot because of that reason.

> >
> > > Does he get silent in the face of your anger?

> > Yes. I've had lots of conversations when I've been angry and it's just me talking to him and he has absolutely no feedback. His logic is, "You haven't asked me any questions, just said things, so what am I supposed to say?" Either that or he'll get extremely delf-depricating and agree with all the angry things I'm saying about him! I want him to fight with me!

4 and 9 relationships

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> Let's talk about fighting. > > Emily, 4, 6, 8 are in the reactive triad and they all want to fight. > It is not a good or bad, right or wrong thing. It is a personality thing. > Well, 2, 7, 9 are all in the positive outlook group. > However, type 2 are known to be histronic like type 7, but 9 are not that way, unlike the other two members, 9 don't want to fight. > So far, you have 2, 4, 6, 7, and 8 to arque with (but 9 wants peace). > > Type 1 does not like to argue, and it makes them madder when you argue with them because they feel they are right and the only one who is right, so when you argue, you are giving him the message that he is wrong. Check it out in the Enneagram book and you will see it is there also. I also know from personal experiences in dealing with non-healthy type 1. They can be very much like Bartholomew! You can fight with them, but they would only criticize you and put you down and reinforce a 4 since of feeling inadeguate to your self-esteem is not worth having. A 9 would just ignore them and move on to doing what they want to do any way. > 5 don't want to deal with emotionalism and irrationalism, so they don't want to fight either. So, you can't fight with 1, 5 and 9. Type 3 loves to debate, but they don't like to argue because that makes him feel like a failure in the relationship. They like it to be positive, enjoyable and productive towards success. They are fun to be around! So, 1, 3, 5, and 9 are not good candidates for arquing. A 9w8 that is connecting to 6 may arque with you, which is when I arqued the most. lol > Arguing with an non-healthy 1 is like a spiritual yoga and meditation lover trying to prove their way of life is valid to a type 1, when they will not hear you or listen to you because you are a heretic, and he is right and you are always and forever wrong. Read the argument between Bartholomew and Epoxy over me and you will see it played out, but replace the word heretic with stupic. Noticed, he is the only one who is right and everybody who disagrees with him is wrong. That is what it is like to arque with type 1 (black and white thinking). In the old days, if you did not agree with them, they will call you a witch and burn you to the stake. > Emily, do you like the stability and peace that he brings into the relationship? Tell him how you feel, honestly and openly, about how it makes you feel when he does not fight back without attacking him, but just speak in the "I" position and not the "you..., you...,you..." If you want to write to me Emily, you have my email, if you prefer privacy of not being attack by insensitivity. He is just as sensative as you are, except he does not show it outwardly as you do. His feelings goes deep within. He may not care a whole lot about what others think, but he values you and cares about what you think. If he is being very lazy and withdrawn being a couch potato, he is not feeling very good inside! > When he is happy, he is productive and smiling. Type 9 accepts you as you are and understands you, even though they may not express it. They mostly understand whatever you share with them of who you are. He probably feels rejection by your anger, which is not unusual. Read more about 9 and relationships. > Hey, I am beginning to wonder is froggy a 4 because it sounds like our relationship. Here is what Riso have to say about 4 and 9 relationships. > > 4 and 9 relationships > http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/4and9.asp > Flower Pagan > A flower a day will keep the sadness away, hopefully! > > > Emily, my bestfriend is a 4w3, and she can relate to you with her 9w1 boyfriend. 9w1 are more quiet than I am because I also have a 8 wing. He probably don't feel secure enough to "rock the boat" with you, in fear of losing the connection or bond that he has with you. Intensity could look like choas to us 9 who wants peace and harmony, more so to a 9w1! When my sweety start fussing, the first thing I want to do is leave and tune out on the Internet in my own peaceful world and wait for him to calm down. I do appreciate his efforts to talk with me more calmly and rationally. > > It does not seem logical to fight and end up saying things that could destroy the loving bond that we treasure so very much. I just called my friend, and I did ask about her relationship of 3 years and he still doesn't fight with her. Have your read Riso's book "The Wisdom of the Enneagram" concerning 9w1? They don't fight. I read that to my friend, so she can learn how to tell when he is angry and she laugh. She could not believe that was his way of showing anger. lol I would quote it, but I misplaced my book. It was so miled that she could not believe it. lol > > Yes, us 9 can be very "in the present" oriented, yet sometimes, our personal past may creep up in our memories. The past is gone and there is nothing we can do to change that, and the future well, I may have more interests in the future than a 9w1 void of the 8 wing. Emily, don't hate me, but I am late a lot too, but I have improved over the years! If you want him to be on time, you have to put an earlier time in his head. Instead, of saying be ready at 10 am, but tell him an earlier time, like 9:30 am. If he is ready early, then that is a great opportunity to spend time together before the event or appointment. MOre than likely, he will be ready on time. > > It does not mean that we do not care. Not at all. Froggy, told me that he is leaving work at 5:30, which was early and unexpected. I was on the computer posting at that time and continued to do so. By the time, I was finished posting, it was 5:30 pm or later. So, I finally rushed into the showers and got dressed and was so glad that I was finished before he got home. Instead of telling me when he is coming home, he told me when he is leaving work, which made the time earlier in my head. He is clever, isn't he! lol > > Emily, you don't want him to fight with you, do you really? Well, my friend was with her man for 3 years, and he still doesn't fight with her. If she wants him to leave, he just leave without a fuss. He is not a sexual variant, so he is not going to have 2 like qualities of relational. I don't know what variant is your boyfriend is, but I have a question for you, could you live with a man that doesn't not want to fight, and it is not in his personality to fight? He has components of 1 and 9, which are the 2 ennetypes that feels anger to be an undesirable element in a relationship and within themselves. Can you live with that? It is the 8 wing that brings me to fight back, once in a while. He probably don't feel like it is going to do him any good to fight with you in the long run. > > He would probably talk to you when you calm down and talk rationally with him in a peaceful sort of way. Froggy wispered in my ears today, when we were in the house alone and the peacefulness of his tone, just made me feel more responsive and at ease. I wonder where did he find that technique from. If you have broke up with him or have rejected him as my friend did, that will not make him feel the security that fighting will not destroy the relationship. You have a right to be who you are and your feelings are valid. Have you tried writing him letters? > > I have talked to her boyfriend before and he have a different way of processing information because he is very similar to being like a 5, like your boyfriend! He was my friend, and I introduced them to each other, so I understand him. He does not relate to emotionalism, like 5, he is more a logical or practical thinker. Sometimes, I am more effective in getting him to do things that he feels is a waste of time because I tell him the logic of why he should do it. They are both highly intelligent, but she is more feeling and he is more thinking. I wish I knew how to get him to argue with her, but I don't want to arque either. lol I believe it is better to be rational, but it is not a matter of right or wrong styles of communications because both are valid. It is a personality thing. Check it out in that book about 9w1 and see does it describe him as it did her boyfriend. > > What if he never fight with you, what would you do? Can you live with him being that way? Does he know the enneagram and understand the nature of both personalities that are in the relationship with each other? Awareness does help. Have you ever wrote him a letter and told him how you felt in a non-threaten to the bond sort of way? > > Flower Pagan > > Even the flowers argue with the weeds and said "go away, you are killing the grass". lol > > > > > > Since you are a 4, doesn't it bother you when he wants to keep the peace and you want to discuss it with a little intensity at times? > > > Yes, that bothers me. I mean, it gets to the point where the only "intensity" I want out of him is to like, pick out the toothpaste or something. He can't do those things. He just doesn't care about little things like that. You can imagine my frustration when it comes time to make big decisions that affect both of us, and he can't help. He is extremely, maybe to an unhealthy point, focused on what is happening right here right now. Not 5 hours from now, not 2 minutes ago, RIGHT NOW. He's late a lot because of that reason. > > > > > > > Does he get silent in the face of your anger? > > > Yes. I've had lots of conversations when I've been angry and it's just me talking to him and he has absolutely no feedback. His logic is, "You haven't asked me any questions, just said things, so what am I supposed to say?" Either that or he'll get extremely delf-depricating and agree with all the angry things I'm saying about him! I want him to fight with me!

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