Enneagram Movie Board Archive

Re: discussion about the causes of world poverty and wealth

Re: discussion about the causes of world poverty and wealth

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Jan's Enneagram & Movie Board ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by Jan den Breejen on December 02, 1998 at 05:25:38:

In Reply to: Re: the causes of world poverty and wealth posted by Dafyd on November 29, 1998 at 12:04:02:

: : Wat do you think of my controversial hypothesis and Landes' analysis? It would be helpful for the Forum learning process to mention your enneatype.

: I think it's horribly naive, and in the present situation, pernicious. :)
: Is Mr Landes a Three or a Seven?
+++ sometimes its very good to be pernicious. The third world aid The Netherlands gives is very large and partly 'guilt motivated'. Research into its net effects showed there were none. It's sterile excercise in transferring money from the poor in the rich countries to the pockets of the rich in the poor countries, was the outcome of this research.
+++ however the most important objection I have to your position is that when writing history; you should not let yourself be influenced by the effects of your research on the present. As the great German historian Ranke said; you should write about history 'wie es eigenlich gewesen' (how it really was). If your research debunks old marxist dogma's; let it be.

: Other cultures certainly weren't pictures of original innocence, but that doesn't mean
: that our ancestors were justified in killing and enslaving them.
: The Protestant work ethic is at least as much Three as One.

+++ No; nobody would type Calvin or Luther as E3's! Of course E3's rally around every fashionable trend in society; but this does not make these trends E3-ish; E3's bascially are not innovative at all; they like to use proven things. E3 and E1 movements are indeed mutually exclusive: the essence of the reformation movement was that people started to think through models/existing philosophies for themselves (they started buying bibles and reading) and search for truth. The E3 drive is to COPY succesful models (see all those salesmen going to NLP seminars: 'if you want to solve a difficult problem imagine you are Einstein etc'). E1 is the real source of societal prosperity and not E3, otherwise Morocco and all those mediterannean countries which radiate E3 'quick trick' tradesman qualities would be very prosperous indeed. I think the correlation between (mainly) E1 protestant movements and western (Northwest Europe + USA) prosperity is too strong to deny. We see that protestant Northern Europe is relatively more wealthy than the other parts of Europe (east, south) and indeed almost all other countries. The fall of the asian tigers supports Landes theory that the E1 mindset is the real long term source of wealth.

I don't think guilt for Third World poverty is essentially Marxist. (Indeed Marx might
: have endorsed the thesis.) It's moral. Lots of Westerners criticised our role in other
: countries before Marx was born.
+++ Perhaps some guys from the Enlightenment? Voltaire? But Hobsbawm and the other marxist historians certainly were the great protagonists of the 'guilt thinking' in our century.

: The best way to make money is to have lots of money already. The Third World
: isn't poor because they're all Nines.
+++ No of course they are not all E9's but the rural easy going way of life looks very 9-ish (manana!)

They're poor because they don't have any capital
: to work with, and they don't have any capital because they are taking part in an
: international trading system which is biased in favour of the rich nations.
:
+++ this is a very marxist tune (prices of raw materials go down; prices of end products go up etc-thinking); you are one of Landes targets I guess

At least part of the reason we're rich is that our ancestors used superior military
: force to extort beneficial trading relations.
: We don't really know
+++ or: perhaps: don't want to know?

what caused the European expansionist movement of the Sixteenth
: Century. We don't know whether a similar movement could have taken place within other
: civilizations at the time; and we don't know that because those civilizations were
: conquered by us.

(History suggests that similar intellectual and cultural advances
: take place at similar times across the world.
+++ yes; that is exactly what Landes points out; there were pockets of E5 inventiveness but due to the stalemate of the E8-ruler/E9-population (Russia!) situation these E5 technological advances were doomed. In short: the E8 rulers killed E1 attemptes for popular education (I think of Pol Pot, Khmer Rouge and Staling, Mao; and recently the Swapo; all those E8 rulers killed E1-ish people because they feared their actions would undermine their power position (ironically they were revered by fashionable E7 intellectuals in the West)

In short: Landes book is not so black and white as I might have suggested in this short text. His basic idea seems more convincing than other theories I have read about the sources of wealth. I think the enneagram can be used to help understand history by identifying cultural values and personality traits of rules and elites.

Jan

: Dafyd (a Five)

Jan's Business Culture Club

Follow Ups:

Re: discussion about the causes of world poverty and wealth Dafyd 13:59:45 12/07/98 (0)
Re: discussion about the causes of world poverty and wealth erica 14:40:49 12/02/98 (10)
- Jan on world poverty and wealth: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' Jan den Breejen 01:51:16 12/04/98 (9)
  - Re: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' Dafyd 14:09:01 12/07/98 (2)
    - Can everything be accounted for by ratty external forces? Don't think so. Jan den Breejen 15:43:36 12/10/98 (0)
    - Thank you Dafyd erica 09:52:11 12/09/98 (0)
  - Re: Jan on world poverty and wealth: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' erica 12:42:55 12/04/98 (5)
    - the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures Jan den Breejen 02:52:22 12/05/98 (4)
      - Re: the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures PommePomme 13:08:41 12/06/98 (3)
        
        Re: the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures Dafyd 13:29:15 12/07/98 (2)
        
        You're certainly right, Dafyd PommePomme 20:35:28 12/07/98 (1)
        
        So are you. :) Dafyd 12:53:59 12/11/98 (0)

Post a Followup

Name:
E-Mail:

Subject:

Comments:
: : : Wat do you think of my controversial hypothesis and Landes' analysis? It would be helpful for the Forum learning process to mention your enneatype. : : I think it's horribly naive, and in the present situation, pernicious. :) : : Is Mr Landes a Three or a Seven? : +++ sometimes its very good to be pernicious. The third world aid The Netherlands gives is very large and partly 'guilt motivated'. Research into its net effects showed there were none. It's sterile excercise in transferring money from the poor in the rich countries to the pockets of the rich in the poor countries, was the outcome of this research. : +++ however the most important objection I have to your position is that when writing history; you should not let yourself be influenced by the effects of your research on the present. As the great German historian Ranke said; you should write about history 'wie es eigenlich gewesen' (how it really was). If your research debunks old marxist dogma's; let it be. : : : Other cultures certainly weren't pictures of original innocence, but that doesn't mean : : that our ancestors were justified in killing and enslaving them. : : The Protestant work ethic is at least as much Three as One. : +++ No; nobody would type Calvin or Luther as E3's! Of course E3's rally around every fashionable trend in society; but this does not make these trends E3-ish; E3's bascially are not innovative at all; they like to use proven things. E3 and E1 movements are indeed mutually exclusive: the essence of the reformation movement was that people started to think through models/existing philosophies for themselves (they started buying bibles and reading) and search for truth. The E3 drive is to COPY succesful models (see all those salesmen going to NLP seminars: 'if you want to solve a difficult problem imagine you are Einstein etc'). E1 is the real source of societal prosperity and not E3, otherwise Morocco and all those mediterannean countries which radiate E3 'quick trick' tradesman qualities would be very prosperous indeed. I think the correlation between (mainly) E1 protestant movements and western (Northwest Europe + USA) prosperity is too strong to deny. We see that protestant Northern Europe is relatively more wealthy than the other parts of Europe (east, south) and indeed almost all other countries. The fall of the asian tigers supports Landes theory that the E1 mindset is the real long term source of wealth. : I don't think guilt for Third World poverty is essentially Marxist. (Indeed Marx might : : have endorsed the thesis.) It's moral. Lots of Westerners criticised our role in other : : countries before Marx was born. : +++ Perhaps some guys from the Enlightenment? Voltaire? But Hobsbawm and the other marxist historians certainly were the great protagonists of the 'guilt thinking' in our century. : : : The best way to make money is to have lots of money already. The Third World : : isn't poor because they're all Nines. : +++ No of course they are not all E9's but the rural easy going way of life looks very 9-ish (manana!) : They're poor because they don't have any capital : : to work with, and they don't have any capital because they are taking part in an : : international trading system which is biased in favour of the rich nations. : : : +++ this is a very marxist tune (prices of raw materials go down; prices of end products go up etc-thinking); you are one of Landes targets I guess : At least part of the reason we're rich is that our ancestors used superior military : : force to extort beneficial trading relations. : : We don't really know : +++ or: perhaps: don't want to know? : what caused the European expansionist movement of the Sixteenth : : Century. We don't know whether a similar movement could have taken place within other : : civilizations at the time; and we don't know that because those civilizations were : : conquered by us. : (History suggests that similar intellectual and cultural advances : : take place at similar times across the world. : +++ yes; that is exactly what Landes points out; there were pockets of E5 inventiveness but due to the stalemate of the E8-ruler/E9-population (Russia!) situation these E5 technological advances were doomed. In short: the E8 rulers killed E1 attemptes for popular education (I think of Pol Pot, Khmer Rouge and Staling, Mao; and recently the Swapo; all those E8 rulers killed E1-ish people because they feared their actions would undermine their power position (ironically they were revered by fashionable E7 intellectuals in the West) : In short: Landes book is not so black and white as I might have suggested in this short text. His basic idea seems more convincing than other theories I have read about the sources of wealth. I think the enneagram can be used to help understand history by identifying cultural values and personality traits of rules and elites. : Jan : : : Dafyd (a Five)

Optional Link URL:
Link Title:
Optional Image URL:

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Jan's Enneagram & Movie Board ] [ FAQ ] movieboard/messages/1520.html

Your Ad Here