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Re: discussion about the causes of world poverty and wealth

Re: discussion about the causes of world poverty and wealth

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Posted by erica on December 02, 1998 at 14:40:49:

In Reply to: Re: discussion about the causes of world poverty and wealth posted by Jan den Breejen on December 02, 1998 at 05:25:38:

Hello Jan,

can I give you a tip? try to see the world from some different points of view. This one you're telling about is too "reassuring" to not be a little bit suspicious.
Actually I would like having more time and being able to write better in English to explain you why in my opinion this point of view is completly wrong (if not completly, say a 95%).
I hope sb else do it, if not, I'll try to improve my English very quickly.

: : : Wat do you think of my controversial hypothesis and Landes' analysis? It would be helpful for the Forum learning process to mention your enneatype.

: : I think it's horribly naive, and in the present situation, pernicious. :)
: : Is Mr Landes a Three or a Seven?
: +++ sometimes its very good to be pernicious. The third world aid The Netherlands gives is very large and partly 'guilt motivated'. Research into its net effects showed there were none. It's sterile excercise in transferring money from the poor in the rich countries to the pockets of the rich in the poor countries, was the outcome of this research.

So, you think it will be a good idea just to cut the helps because there's no reason to be guilty? Quite an easy solution! Any possibilities about reorganising resources?
Actually "the rich countries" are not supposed to help "the poor countries" out of guilty, there are many other reasons for doing so (ethical, but mainly economical). Helping, if well done, can be advantageus for rich countries too and in "fair" way.

: +++ however the most important objection I have to your position is that when writing history; you should not let yourself be influenced by the effects of your research on the present. As the great German historian Ranke said; you should write about history 'wie es eigenlich gewesen' (how it really was). If your research debunks old marxist dogma's; let it be.

So: look at facts as they were (History is writing about facts, it doesn't "happen"): facts are far more complicate than you suppose.
Maybe Marx is wrong and marxist theories about history are not actual but they seems to me more subtle and less oversimplyfing than what you suggest.

Then, I agree with Dafyd: Enneagram is a theory about individuals, it's so far dangerous to apply it to country, and in that unshaded way...
A lot of yours statements seems out from prejudices: E3 Moroccans, E9 easy going rural life, E8/E9 Russians. I'd be more carefull.
From your messages it seems that E1's are the "goods" in the world history, so it's "fair" that "E1 countries" are the most rich and powerful: please!
It's quite dangerous to mix ethics with history.

Last things: time is long and the success of N/W countries is relatively young, remember that others were powerful in the past. Who know who will be powerful in the future?
Maybe there is no reason to be guilty because of power, but for sure there're less reasons of being proud of it.

Just think about and look for other theories (a recent one suggests that Europeans are actually "geographically" lucky)

Erica
Erica

Follow Ups:

Jan on world poverty and wealth: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' Jan den Breejen 01:51:16 12/04/98 (9)
- Re: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' Dafyd 14:09:01 12/07/98 (2)
  - Can everything be accounted for by ratty external forces? Don't think so. Jan den Breejen 15:43:36 12/10/98 (0)
  - Thank you Dafyd erica 09:52:11 12/09/98 (0)
- Re: Jan on world poverty and wealth: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' erica 12:42:55 12/04/98 (5)
  - the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures Jan den Breejen 02:52:22 12/05/98 (4)
    - Re: the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures PommePomme 13:08:41 12/06/98 (3)
      - Re: the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures Dafyd 13:29:15 12/07/98 (2)
        
        You're certainly right, Dafyd PommePomme 20:35:28 12/07/98 (1)
        
        So are you. :) Dafyd 12:53:59 12/11/98 (0)

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Comments:
: Hello Jan, : can I give you a tip? try to see the world from some different points of view. This one you're telling about is too "reassuring" to not be a little bit suspicious. : Actually I would like having more time and being able to write better in English to explain you why in my opinion this point of view is completly wrong (if not completly, say a 95%). : I hope sb else do it, if not, I'll try to improve my English very quickly. : : : : Wat do you think of my controversial hypothesis and Landes' analysis? It would be helpful for the Forum learning process to mention your enneatype. : : : I think it's horribly naive, and in the present situation, pernicious. :) : : : Is Mr Landes a Three or a Seven? : : +++ sometimes its very good to be pernicious. The third world aid The Netherlands gives is very large and partly 'guilt motivated'. Research into its net effects showed there were none. It's sterile excercise in transferring money from the poor in the rich countries to the pockets of the rich in the poor countries, was the outcome of this research. : So, you think it will be a good idea just to cut the helps because there's no reason to be guilty? Quite an easy solution! Any possibilities about reorganising resources? : Actually "the rich countries" are not supposed to help "the poor countries" out of guilty, there are many other reasons for doing so (ethical, but mainly economical). Helping, if well done, can be advantageus for rich countries too and in "fair" way. : : +++ however the most important objection I have to your position is that when writing history; you should not let yourself be influenced by the effects of your research on the present. As the great German historian Ranke said; you should write about history 'wie es eigenlich gewesen' (how it really was). If your research debunks old marxist dogma's; let it be. : So: look at facts as they were (History is writing about facts, it doesn't "happen"): facts are far more complicate than you suppose. : Maybe Marx is wrong and marxist theories about history are not actual but they seems to me more subtle and less oversimplyfing than what you suggest. : Then, I agree with Dafyd: Enneagram is a theory about individuals, it's so far dangerous to apply it to country, and in that unshaded way... : A lot of yours statements seems out from prejudices: E3 Moroccans, E9 easy going rural life, E8/E9 Russians. I'd be more carefull. : From your messages it seems that E1's are the "goods" in the world history, so it's "fair" that "E1 countries" are the most rich and powerful: please! : It's quite dangerous to mix ethics with history. : Last things: time is long and the success of N/W countries is relatively young, remember that others were powerful in the past. Who know who will be powerful in the future? : Maybe there is no reason to be guilty because of power, but for sure there're less reasons of being proud of it. : Just think about and look for other theories (a recent one suggests that Europeans are actually "geographically" lucky) : Erica : Erica

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