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Jan on world poverty and wealth: 'different economic systems for different national cultures'

Jan on world poverty and wealth: 'different economic systems for different national cultures'

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Posted by Jan den Breejen on December 04, 1998 at 01:51:16:

In Reply to: Re: discussion about the causes of world poverty and wealth posted by erica on December 02, 1998 at 14:40:49:

: So, you think +++NO, YOU PROJECT THIS ON ME; I DIDN'T WRITE IT AND DON'T BELIEVE IT; JUST LOOK AT MY TEXT AS IT IS! -it will be a good idea just to cut the helps because there's no reason to be guilty? Quite an easy solution! Any possibilities about reorganising resources?
: Actually "the rich countries" are not supposed to help "the poor countries" out of guilty, there are many other reasons for doing so (ethical, but mainly economical). Helping, if well done, can be advantageus for rich countries too and in "fair" way.
++++my review only want to present a new and alternative view on what has really happened. (remember my remark on Ranke's point of view). The discussion of what we should or should not do is quite a different one from why things have happened! But since you triggered my interest in that question; I'll respond.

: So: look at facts as they were (History is writing about facts, it doesn't "happen"): facts are far more complicate than you suppose.
: Maybe - YOU CAN'T MEAN 'MAYBE' HERE?-Marx is wrong and marxist theories about history are not actual but they seems to me more subtle and less oversimplyfing than what you suggest - DO YOU KNOW THE VOLUMES MARX WANTED TO WRITE ON DAS KAPITAL? QUITE SOMETHING ELSE COMPARED TO THE SPACE OF AN E-MAIL
+++ any attempt to try to represent such a complex evolutionary process in a very short text of course simplifies. But that's not at all a bad thing because it forces you to get to the essence of the matter. Just like an enneatype is not a person or even a good description of how a person behaves. Simplifications and models are necessary to discuss these complex things. Remember; even if or the sake of writing a short text it may look so; the citymap is not the city. Din't worry; I know!

: Then, I agree with Dafyd: Enneagram is a theory about individuals, it's so far dangerous to apply it to country, and in that unshaded way...
: A lot of yours statements seems out from prejudices: E3 Moroccans, E9 easy going rural life, E8/E9 Russians. I'd be more carefull.
: From your messages it seems that E1's are the "goods" in the world history, so it's "fair" that "E1 countries" are the most rich and powerful: please!
: It's quite dangerous to mix ethics with history.
+++ I don't agree with both of you that the enneagram must be limited to individuals. A culture is a set of individuals with some similar traits. When we talk about the culture of Germany as E6-ish; of course we don't mean that every Frenchman is an E6 (the citymap and the city!). But the overall IMPRESSION of German culture is E6-ish (the authoritarian personality). That's also the way we use the enneagram when applying it to an individual. When we type someone as E6 we KNOW that there are 8 more drivers of his behavior (just as there are E1, E2 etc Germans.) So a national or business culture can be seen as a metaphysical personality style that can indeed be enneatyped. And: there are NO prejudices (value judgements) when allocating enneatypes: no enneatype is better than another so no typing of a business culture or national culture is positive or negative. Lastly: nobody IS an enneatype; but he/she resembles it. However I assume the readers of this board to know this; repeating these messages in every review makes no sense at all.

: Last things: time is long and the success of N/W countries is relatively young, remember that others were powerful in the past. Who know who will be powerful in the future?
: Maybe there is no reason to be guilty because of power, but for sure there're less reasons of being proud of it.

+++ I don't think ANYBODY is prowd of exploitation. However, I do feel prowd about the enormous progress western society (for a large part driven by E1 people) has made. A fantastic advance: in the 18th centurey the average age was 35 years... Nothing wrong with that.
+++ Regarding your question about my view on the way to go with the non western countries; I think that the current way of giving aid is fundamentally not addressing what it's all about. It's too simple minded to think that it will work. Anyhow just as in interpersonal relations it's important not to think that other people think and value things in the same way like you do; we should make a distinction when applying economic systems to nations that have strongly differing cultures. I believe that the current dominant E3 (marketing)-E7 (consuming) based western culture exploits the valuable E1 educational legacy and especially doesn't give the respect, credit and money our education systems and the E1 way of thinking need ('rigid; not flexible'; E3/E7 prejudices about E1 people.) I believe that a mission to educate people (ethical values and knowledge) can indeed enhance the quality of life and the power of economic survival for many. I believe the E1 educational drive can keep people out of crime and povertyI think you failed to read this as my underlying message. But I am not sure if this will be succesful in ALL third world countries in the same way. The French put lots of money in educating Africans in technical skills but with very little result. Perhaps our western economic system just is not the right system for every country (and not even for all western countries; the number of stressed and over-worked people grows strongly in The Netherlands; E3 is the natural style of only 1/9th of the population...). The enneagram can be a useful tool for the abstract analysis of economic problems; expanding the current simple minded discussion about 'giving money' or 'not giving money'. I feel that the culture of -for example- the Russian people is very close to the E9 archetype; 'community' is the main mental concept in the Russian character. In the Tsarist period the economic system was based on communities and in the Sovjet system again. This economic system suits the specific culture of the country much better
than the current imported E3 system which destroys many a Russians life. An individualistic western E3 economics DOESN'T FIT with their national culture at all; and I feel the chances are small that it will ever fit. So: my vision on the future of world economic growth is that 'different national cultures need different economic systems'. The enneagram can be a useful tool to guide this discussion: As a road map of course; not to be confused with the city...

+++ Now I've read your re-actions on my (supposed) opinions. Can you ad YOUR view to this forum on how to make the people in the developing countries more happy? And what could be the role of the enneagram in this?

Take care

Jan

Jan's Business Culture Club

Follow Ups:

Re: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' Dafyd 14:09:01 12/07/98 (2)
- Can everything be accounted for by ratty external forces? Don't think so. Jan den Breejen 15:43:36 12/10/98 (0)
- Thank you Dafyd erica 09:52:11 12/09/98 (0)
Re: Jan on world poverty and wealth: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' erica 12:42:55 12/04/98 (5)
- the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures Jan den Breejen 02:52:22 12/05/98 (4)
  - Re: the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures PommePomme 13:08:41 12/06/98 (3)
    - Re: the enneagram as tool for analysing/understanding business and national cultures Dafyd 13:29:15 12/07/98 (2)
      - You're certainly right, Dafyd PommePomme 20:35:28 12/07/98 (1)
        
        So are you. :) Dafyd 12:53:59 12/11/98 (0)

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: : : So, you think +++NO, YOU PROJECT THIS ON ME; I DIDN'T WRITE IT AND DON'T BELIEVE IT; JUST LOOK AT MY TEXT AS IT IS! -it will be a good idea just to cut the helps because there's no reason to be guilty? Quite an easy solution! Any possibilities about reorganising resources? : : Actually "the rich countries" are not supposed to help "the poor countries" out of guilty, there are many other reasons for doing so (ethical, but mainly economical). Helping, if well done, can be advantageus for rich countries too and in "fair" way. : ++++my review only want to present a new and alternative view on what has really happened. (remember my remark on Ranke's point of view). The discussion of what we should or should not do is quite a different one from why things have happened! But since you triggered my interest in that question; I'll respond. : : : So: look at facts as they were (History is writing about facts, it doesn't "happen"): facts are far more complicate than you suppose. : : Maybe - YOU CAN'T MEAN 'MAYBE' HERE?-Marx is wrong and marxist theories about history are not actual but they seems to me more subtle and less oversimplyfing than what you suggest - DO YOU KNOW THE VOLUMES MARX WANTED TO WRITE ON DAS KAPITAL? QUITE SOMETHING ELSE COMPARED TO THE SPACE OF AN E-MAIL : +++ any attempt to try to represent such a complex evolutionary process in a very short text of course simplifies. But that's not at all a bad thing because it forces you to get to the essence of the matter. Just like an enneatype is not a person or even a good description of how a person behaves. Simplifications and models are necessary to discuss these complex things. Remember; even if or the sake of writing a short text it may look so; the citymap is not the city. Din't worry; I know! : : : Then, I agree with Dafyd: Enneagram is a theory about individuals, it's so far dangerous to apply it to country, and in that unshaded way... : : A lot of yours statements seems out from prejudices: E3 Moroccans, E9 easy going rural life, E8/E9 Russians. I'd be more carefull. : : From your messages it seems that E1's are the "goods" in the world history, so it's "fair" that "E1 countries" are the most rich and powerful: please! : : It's quite dangerous to mix ethics with history. : +++ I don't agree with both of you that the enneagram must be limited to individuals. A culture is a set of individuals with some similar traits. When we talk about the culture of Germany as E6-ish; of course we don't mean that every Frenchman is an E6 (the citymap and the city!). But the overall IMPRESSION of German culture is E6-ish (the authoritarian personality). That's also the way we use the enneagram when applying it to an individual. When we type someone as E6 we KNOW that there are 8 more drivers of his behavior (just as there are E1, E2 etc Germans.) So a national or business culture can be seen as a metaphysical personality style that can indeed be enneatyped. And: there are NO prejudices (value judgements) when allocating enneatypes: no enneatype is better than another so no typing of a business culture or national culture is positive or negative. Lastly: nobody IS an enneatype; but he/she resembles it. However I assume the readers of this board to know this; repeating these messages in every review makes no sense at all. : : : Last things: time is long and the success of N/W countries is relatively young, remember that others were powerful in the past. Who know who will be powerful in the future? : : Maybe there is no reason to be guilty because of power, but for sure there're less reasons of being proud of it. : +++ I don't think ANYBODY is prowd of exploitation. However, I do feel prowd about the enormous progress western society (for a large part driven by E1 people) has made. A fantastic advance: in the 18th centurey the average age was 35 years... Nothing wrong with that. : +++ Regarding your question about my view on the way to go with the non western countries; I think that the current way of giving aid is fundamentally not addressing what it's all about. It's too simple minded to think that it will work. Anyhow just as in interpersonal relations it's important not to think that other people think and value things in the same way like you do; we should make a distinction when applying economic systems to nations that have strongly differing cultures. I believe that the current dominant E3 (marketing)-E7 (consuming) based western culture exploits the valuable E1 educational legacy and especially doesn't give the respect, credit and money our education systems and the E1 way of thinking need ('rigid; not flexible'; E3/E7 prejudices about E1 people.) I believe that a mission to educate people (ethical values and knowledge) can indeed enhance the quality of life and the power of economic survival for many. I believe the E1 educational drive can keep people out of crime and povertyI think you failed to read this as my underlying message. But I am not sure if this will be succesful in ALL third world countries in the same way. The French put lots of money in educating Africans in technical skills but with very little result. Perhaps our western economic system just is not the right system for every country (and not even for all western countries; the number of stressed and over-worked people grows strongly in The Netherlands; E3 is the natural style of only 1/9th of the population...). The enneagram can be a useful tool for the abstract analysis of economic problems; expanding the current simple minded discussion about 'giving money' or 'not giving money'. I feel that the culture of -for example- the Russian people is very close to the E9 archetype; 'community' is the main mental concept in the Russian character. In the Tsarist period the economic system was based on communities and in the Sovjet system again. This economic system suits the specific culture of the country much better : than the current imported E3 system which destroys many a Russians life. An individualistic western E3 economics DOESN'T FIT with their national culture at all; and I feel the chances are small that it will ever fit. So: my vision on the future of world economic growth is that 'different national cultures need different economic systems'. The enneagram can be a useful tool to guide this discussion: As a road map of course; not to be confused with the city... : +++ Now I've read your re-actions on my (supposed) opinions. Can you ad YOUR view to this forum on how to make the people in the developing countries more happy? And what could be the role of the enneagram in this? : Take care : Jan

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