Posted by erica on December 04, 1998 at 12:42:55:
In Reply to: Jan on world poverty and wealth: 'different economic systems for different national cultures' posted by Jan den Breejen on December 04, 1998 at 01:51:16:
: : So, you think +++NO, YOU PROJECT THIS ON ME; I DIDN'T WRITE IT AND DON'T BELIEVE IT; JUST LOOK AT MY TEXT AS IT IS! -it will be a good idea just to cut the helps because there's no reason to be guilty? Quite an easy solution! Any possibilities about reorganising resources?
I do know you didn't write that, I put your philosophy to the extreme as a kind of provocation, because I’ve already listen to opinions similar to yours and there was where all of them ended to. I’m glad you have different ideas.
: : Actually "the rich countries" are not supposed to help "the poor countries" out of guilty, there are many other reasons for doing so (ethical, but mainly economical). Helping, if well done, can be advantageus for rich countries too and in "fair" way.
: ++++my review only want to present a new and alternative view on what has really happened. (remember my remark on Ranke's point of view). The discussion of what we should or should not do is quite a different one from why things have happened! But since you triggered my interest in that question; I'll respond.
:
: : So: look at facts as they were (History is writing about facts, it doesn't "happen"): facts are far more complicate than you suppose.
: : Maybe - YOU CAN'T MEAN 'MAYBE' HERE?
Yes I do, and I’ll explain why. I think Marx did a good analysis of his own time: it was new and sharp; but it was about a society that doesn’t exist any more, and it was a point of view (with a good deal of errors) and not the truth. Whit that "maybe" I want just to say that in my opinon it’s a mistake to throw Marx away. He can still teach us something about our past and not only.
-Marx is wrong and marxist theories about history are not actual but they seems to me more subtle and less oversimplyfing than what you suggest - DO YOU KNOW THE VOLUMES MARX WANTED TO WRITE ON DAS KAPITAL? QUITE SOMETHING ELSE COMPARED TO THE SPACE OF AN E-MAIL
: +++ any attempt to try to represent such a complex evolutionary process in a very short text of course simplifies. But that's not at all a bad thing because it forces you to get to the essence of the matter.
That’s it: I think the essence of the matter you’ve written about is that it’s a oversemplyfing theory.
Of course, maybe I’d change idea reading the whole book you were writing about but I have my doubts. These ideas aren’t completely new to me, I’ve alredy read them on magazines, newspapers, listen to them on radio and TV. You added an Enneagram explanation to them but it doesn’t change the matter that much.
: Just like an enneatype is not a person or even a good description of how a person behaves. Simplifications and models are necessary to discuss these complex things. Remember; even if or the sake of writing a short text it may look so; the citymap is not the city. Din't worry; I know!
I don’t worry about semplification in writing a short essay about a model and I do know models are semplification of reality. I worry about model that are oversemplification of reality.
: : Then, I agree with Dafyd: Enneagram is a theory about individuals, it's so far dangerous to apply it to country, and in that unshaded way...
: : A lot of yours statements seems out from prejudices: E3 Moroccans, E9 easy going rural life, E8/E9 Russians. I'd be more carefull.
: : From your messages it seems that E1's are the "goods" in the world history, so it's "fair" that "E1 countries" are the most rich and powerful: please!
: : It's quite dangerous to mix ethics with history.
: +++ I don't agree with both of you that the enneagram must be limited to individuals. A culture is a set of individuals with some similar traits. When we talk about the culture of Germany as E6-ish; of course we don't mean that every Frenchman is an E6 (the citymap and the city!). But the overall IMPRESSION of German culture is E6-ish (the authoritarian personality). That's also the way we use the enneagram when applying it to an individual. When we type someone as E6 we KNOW that there are 8 more drivers of his behavior (just as there are E1, E2 etc Germans.) So a national or business culture can be seen as a metaphysical personality style that can indeed be enneatyped.
I may agree that German today or close past culture is or looks more 6ish that, let’s say, English, Spanish or whatever culture, but that’s all, I won’t go further.
Passing from individuals to societies you pass trough many "organisation levels" and it does matter. What can be a good model for a person isn’t a good model for a society because, as I told before, is oversemplifing and not appropriate.
A culture is not a set of individuals: this isn’t just too simple, it is wrong.
:And: there are NO prejudices (value judgements) when allocating enneatypes: no enneatype is better than another so no typing of a business culture or national culture is positive or negative.
I’m sorry but in your descriptions I can see value judgements, maybe it’s my mistake, but I’d like to have somebody else’s opinion about that .
: Lastly: nobody IS an enneatype; but he/she resembles it. However I assume the readers of this board to know this; repeating these messages in every review makes no sense at all.
AOL to that, no problem at all.
: +++ I don't think ANYBODY is prowd of exploitation. However, I do feel prowd about the enormous progress western society (for a large part driven by E1 people) has made. A fantastic advance: in the 18th centurey the average age was 35 years... Nothing wrong with that.
Let’s make clear: I have nothing against "progress" itself, but it has its dark sides:
- the most recent progress stay on the shoulders of thousands of years of previous discoveries and developing, to wich not only N/W countries contributed;
- with good sides (i.e. the decreasing of child death rates) there are also tons of new problems;
- the fasteness of this progress it’s also a problem not just an advantage;
- do not understimate the luck factor;
- the progress itself was possible also because of exploitations. Things are still in this way. The helps that rich countries give to the poor are small changes in comparison with all the resources the first obtain from the latest and at very low prices, indeed.
Think a little bit more to these points (there’re more of them) and maybe you’ll be less proud.
: +++ Regarding your question about my view on the way to go with the non western countries; I think that the current way of giving aid is fundamentally not addressing what it's all about. It's too simple minded to think that it will work. Anyhow just as in interpersonal relations it's important not to think that other people think and value things in the same way like you do; we should make a distinction when applying economic systems to nations that have strongly differing cultures. I believe that the current dominant E3 (marketing)-E7 (consuming) based western culture exploits the valuable E1 educational legacy and especially doesn't give the respect, credit and money our education systems and the E1 way of thinking need ('rigid; not flexible'; E3/E7 prejudices about E1 people.) I believe that a mission to educate people (ethical values and knowledge) can indeed enhance the quality of life and the power of economic survival for many. I believe the E1 educational drive can keep people out of crime and povertyI think you failed to read this as my underlying message. But I am not sure if this will be succesful in ALL third world countries in the same way. The French put lots of money in educating Africans in technical skills but with very little result. Perhaps our western economic system just is not the right system for every country (and not even for all western countries; the number of stressed and over-worked people grows strongly in The Netherlands; E3 is the natural style of only 1/9th of the population...). The enneagram can be a useful tool for the abstract analysis of economic problems; expanding the current simple minded discussion about 'giving money' or 'not giving money'. I feel that the culture of -for example- the Russian people is very close to the E9 archetype; 'community' is the main mental concept in the Russian character. In the Tsarist period the economic system was based on communities and in the Sovjet system again. This economic system suits the specific culture of the country much better
: than the current imported E3 system which destroys many a Russians life. An individualistic western E3 economics DOESN'T FIT with their national culture at all; and I feel the chances are small that it will ever fit. So: my vision on the future of world economic growth is that 'different national cultures need different economic systems'. The enneagram can be a useful tool to guide this discussion: As a road map of course; not to be confused with the city...
OK: I think I agree about the main ideas there but, again, I won’t put them with enneatypes.
I think you worship too much that E1 root of N/W countries. It’s too simple to say this culture got exploited by E3/E7 bad "habit". Just to say one things among many others: during last century, when, according to your opinions (I guess), these countries were still mainly 1ish, their "effects" on other less powerful countries weren’t less damaging. I have to write again: 1’s aren’t the good guys on history’s screen!
(it isn’t that I agree with your definitions of 1’s leaders and so on)
Note: I won’t deny the importance of Protenstantism in N/W culture, but there’re also other important roots: the classical legacy and the values of French revolution, to say some of them. Then, Protestantism doesn’t mean just freedom: the Luther’s imposition of blind obedience is one of the Nazism roots.
Of course, the western economical model do not fit to different cultures and it’s also problematic for the countries where it come from. One’s do not need to take the Enneagram to understand it (if you like, you can). The problem is that now it’s almost the world system; it’s difficult to have different systems in different countries, whereas everything is worldly interconnected.
: +++ Now I've read your re-actions on my (supposed) opinions. Can you ad YOUR view to this forum on how to make the people in the developing countries more happy? And what could be the role of the enneagram in this?
Please, let’s do not speak about "happiness", this is not problem of happiness, whatever happiness is.
I have some experience in working for one organisation for helping Southern America poor people. Although I don’t agree about a lot of things with this organisations, from this experience I can take some ideas:
- helping have to be spread in small local actions with short term goals;
- of course there have to be culture action, but with respect of local tradition (I do not worship blindly traditions, BTW) and starting with children and preparing teachers;
- they have to be people(from rich country) living there for years;
- it’s good to try to preserve local thecniques and plants and animal strains and export
more innovative thecniques not all together;
- deal with people as with equals but do not wait for "love" from them: to be helped isn’t a nice experience;
- try to make local populations almost selsufficient about basic resource;
- make some sort of connection between people that are helping with money from rich countries and people that are helped: make the first know what are the problems, what the improvement, what can be useful and so on. That have to be done regurarly.
I know, this isn’t a big plan but I have none. I can suggest more control of big international industries about the using of resourse and the respect of human rights,
"War to the war industries" and more power to the UN.
About Enneagram: I can’t see any main role for it. Where the problem is surviving psychological troubles aren’t that important although they do exist. I guess it’s clear that I don’t trust it as a "sociological tool".
I think that’s all for now and it’s a lot: I wonder if sb would read all this stuff…
have a nice weekend
Erica