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As I was saying...

As I was saying...

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Posted by MAverick on March 06, 2000 at 19:53:15:

Travis,

I apologize for such a delayed response but soon after I posted my last post here I got too busy with my work
and studies to do much else. I had planned on writing a detailed post(much like yours) to explain my views
concerning the matter when I had time anyways, so instead of addressing your post point by point I'll simply
provide my viewpoint. I emphasize however that I am providing a FULL explanation complete with details--I will
be writing it in the same fasshion that I write ALL my scientific papers which means that I reccomend you read it
as if you weere reading it from a journal rather than as if it were addressed to you personally. I also will be using
myself as my pprime example since obviously I know myself better than I know any other example.

Howevewr,before I ontinue I feel I must provide the following background so that there is no further
misunderstandings between us: I am currently a student majoring in neurobiology and minoring in physics. The
focus of my interests is the nature and evolution of consciousness. More specifically, I am concerned with
how--once the nature of consciousness has been more or less defined--Human beings can learn to control their
own evolution. Since this is my planned life's work, I obviously take the matter very seriously and am very
knowledable on the subject simply because I am FORCED to be. Although Still a student, I am not a layman and
that means I have knowlege on the subject of the Human mind and personality that the majority of those who
post here--through no fault of their own, of course(not evryone wants to be a neurobilogist)--do not. I state this
because the following explanatiion is based on a solid background in this field, provided by someone with vested
interest in having the OBJECTIVE TRUTH--otherwiuse I will be unable to accomplish anything that I wish to; I
also state it to answer your previous question of why I visited this site if I didn't really respect the Enneagram: the
fact is that I approach this site and most other message boards on the internet in the same manner that I approach
a news site or a crossword puzzle--it is something that Id do in my spare time while working--although I don't
"buy" the ennagramm, it is always fun to discuss personality and I approach discussions of the eenaagram in the
same manner as I would approach say a discussionf time travel--although I do not believe it is possible(and have
ample evidence for that reasoning) it is great fun to discuss the possiblities if it WERE.

With that said:

THE PROBLEM WITH THE ENNEGRAM

The universe, physicists have found, is composed of two things:energy(as quanta, or radiation) and matter, which
is the asssemblage of infintisemal(sic)particals caloled quarks--we live in a quantum universe. Further, it has been
found that this quantum universe is ruled by the uncertainty principle, which states that you can nevr know the
precise location and momentunm of a particle at the same time becasue the act of measuring one changes the
other. This principle helped give birth to Complexity(Chaos)theory. Rearch into this are together with emrging
evidence seems to indicate that the uiverse evolved out a quantum informatuion flux--that the random interactions
of quantum particles eventually "jumbled" together into a particular fashion that resulted in a domino--or
avalanche--effect. Just as a snow ball rolling down a mountainside increses in mass as it goes, the random
ordering of particles led to an increse in order that hasn't stopped. The ordering of this qunatum information has
increased to the point that the un iverse has become conscious of itself in the form of conscious beings(us and
whoever else mihgt be out there where no one has boldly gone before). In other words, Human beings are
"plugged in" to the universe--we are a aprt of it. That sounds absurdly obvious but most Human beings seem
either to never realize it or to forget it(most notably, this fact is seen in religious bveliefs and the way humans
generally approach and react to nature and themselves). This is importasnt becasue it means that consciousness is
the order underlying the chaotic complexity of the quantum flux.it means that although still largely chaotic, they
system is increasining in order as consciousness evolves(it is this I am primarily interested in--although precsely
due to the uncertainty principle there will always be chaos, the development of consciousness can possibl;e lead
to a state where conscious beings can more or less "stave it off" simply becasue being conscious provides mor
powere than not being conscious).

Most people have trouble envisioing evolution(for that is what was just described)becasue they don't understand
how order could come from chaos, how an "accident" coyuld have led to our development. Their failure to
understabn evolution is precisely becasue they are entrenched in it--since they are conscious--are DEFINED BY
CONSCIOUSNEE--THEY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT WHICH THEY ARE nOT and yet ARE AT
THE SAME TIME. The deeper consciousnnes has still eluded them--they are aware that they are aware but are
unable to pul themselves away to an objective perspective. For instance, evolution is often viewd as an ascension
but in reality it is nothing of the soert burt rather simoply an increase in order-as a aprt of the objective uiniverse
we are simply an increase in order a process and the only reason such importance is put on that process is
becasue we put it there(and interesting enough the very act of being awre of the order increases order). In short,
HUmans not only are handicapped by the subjectivity oif their own personal emotions and thoughts but they are
handicapped by the subjectivity OF BEING CONSCIOUS AT ALL. Without consciousness in the uiverse, the
universe basically collpses on itself--it becomes chaotic totally once again becasue without awareness of
existence, it basically does not exist at al as we know it but instead returns to a flux. Without awareness there is
no way to predict anything so evrything is up for grabs.

So precisely becasue Human beings are a aprt of a process, most are unable to view themselves or the universe
objectively--for most it is like trying to see their own face but never trying to use a mirror(objectivity) to do so.
Whether they like to admit it or not, the majority of Human beings are are evidence of the process--most are
ruled by the programming Nature wired into them(emotions, drives, etc.)and by previous information systems that
were passed on to them(relions, political beliefs, etc.)and in that fact is the evidence that despite the order that
has emerged thwere is still a great deal of chaos. It is with the advance ment of reason partially brought on by the
development of external infornmation storage and science that order has increased both in individual Human
minds and in cvilization as a whole(moving from tribal to more globalistic society).

Here then is the main point: order emerged from chaos which resulted in consciousness. Consciousness is
EVERYTHING becasue without it the universe i rendered moot. Conscious beings are a part of the universe so
basically we are the "mind of the universe". Since consciousnees is verything nad we are conscious then the
obviously the most important thing for us to do is further the developmenbt of consciousness(and thus order). The
most defining trait of conscious being si s the existence of reason. Everything that we value in ourselves is due to
reason--without it we would still exist like the animals, ruled by primal drives and emotions(our value of emotions
is due to reason--we value love and jou for isntance becasue we are AWARWE AND CAPABLE OF
THINKING ABOUT THEM--the animals have emotions too(limbic region of the brain)but do not have reason
so the emotions are just that--motive facors.We make love romantic--dogs can't).

In short, the defining trait of Hunman beings is our reason and as such it is reason that should be cultivated more
than any othert thing in order to advance as individuals and as a race of beings. The ultimate goal would be to
advance reason and will in individuals to the point that they learnt to integrate themselves properely--this would
mean controlling one's emotions and channeling them properly(as oppoesed to eliminating them which is
impossibl;e and unwanted, the goal is to rule your emtions rather than--as most people do--let them rule you)..
RThe ultimate goal the--in terms of the Enneagram--is to devlop reason, which means the integration of all the
types from the center(5) which results in trascendance. Ultimately the evolution weould lead to indiviudals being
able to exist self-contained only linking to others when they wanted to.

The problem with the Enneagram isn't that its wrong(some of it at least) it's that its inaccurate and ,mostly,
obsolete. Given what we know of physicws and how it relates to the mind and given that Human beings are
consciouss and thus have wills and capable of being aware of their true development, then they are capable of
changing anthemselves, creating themselves. It is this self awareness this ability to perceive one's own individual
will and use it that defines an inidvidual--evrything else--emotions,drives, and enviromental influences) are
rendered moot since a person is capable of transcending them and creating him/herself. Using the ennegram to
assess ones personality given what we know of neurobiology and physics is like using a 19th century chemistry
book in a modern lab--some of it will be correct, but most of it isn't re;lavent and can even be detrimental to what
one wants to accomplish.The ideal persoanlity questionaire is basically a self-dialogue--I stated before that I
backed the MBTI although I didn't at first--here's why: I have beeen engaged in neurobilogical research and its
relation to personality since my early teens and si I was always skeptical of personality questionaires. It wan't until
I took the MBTI test that I encountered something scientific--I know myself inside out through introspection and
I was stunnded when I took the test and it described a great deal about me accurately. The reason? The MBTI
acknoweldges the existence of ACTUAL FUNCTIONS--intooversion and extroversion, judging and perceiving,
etc.) that exist in an either/or fashin--yuou can tell an introverted person from an extroverted person
unambiguously for instance. Further, what function a person utilizes is readily determined by a series of qrelated
questions. The entire questionairre simply asts as a self-dialogue for those who didn't know what to ask and how
to determine correctly.As such, it can used by a person to improve themselves. The Ennegram, however, was
derived not from mental functions but from a mixture of observed emotional states, roles, andsuperstitious beliefs.
It was derived at a n earlier time in Human evolution when people were less evolved than they are today.
Emotions ruled much more then than today(and that is saying alot) as the eir religious beliefs indicate(polytheism).
The Enneagram may have worlked well then precisely becasue people were less complex and roles were much
more defined--one had no trouble pointing out 1's(the troublemakers),2's(the healers),3's(the the flamboyant
playboys, 4's(the a3RTISTS;5'S(THE WSAGES, 6'S(THE SOLDIERS,7'S, THE
PLEASURE-SEEKERS.8'S(THE KINGS,GENRALS,ETC. AND 9'S(THE MEDIators). In any primitive
society enneatypes are more readily asessed precisely becasue they grew into those roles(Alexander the Great fo
instance was a megalo,maniac, a surefire 8--undoubtyedly largely gbecasue he was rasied that way).. The
enneagram is not so easily applied to individuals who are much more complex than Humans were centurues ago.
However, let's leave that aside--my irritstion with those who push the ennagram isn't so much its primitive origin,
but rather the fact that a questionaire has been attached to it. Unlike the MBTI which provuides questions to
determine individual either/or FUNCTIONS that together constitute a type, the Enneagram ------------------

Continued here:

merely provides 9 hypothetical types that are not actual functions of the mind but are rather types used to decribe observed behavior. The MBTI is specific, the enneagram non-specific. The origanotrs of the modern enneagram questionaire did nothing more than take ancient archtypes(and yes they are ancient--the 9 types were described in ancient times by different peoples without the actual use of the enneagram itself),try to determine the motivating factors behind eavh type, and then create a questionaire to determine how those factors appliy to indivuduals. This would be fine if they were just trying to help people understand their personality in one particular way. However, they wrongly go further by srating that the enneagram is an ACTUAL description of personality FUNCTIOnS whern they clearly are not. THe MBTI describes functions--as stated abogve, clearly defined dual either/or functions. The 9 types do exist but they are just ONE perspective of the human personality and it is a very imprecise one at that. Whereas the MBTI types are determinded by function combinations, the enneagram types(thinker,etc)attempt to act as FUNCTIONS THEMSELVES. This is not scienticific or realistic at all. This is particularly true with regard to the entire wing system. The biggest disagreement we had was over wing theory. The enegram standard wing theory's problem is that it treats the human mind as 2-dimensional rather than multi-dimensional as it actually is. The 9 types are not what a perosn is they are descriptions of what that person is. All 9 types exist in each person to varying degrees, it's just that oe type is primarily the type they act from ACCORDING TO THE ENNEAGRAM. in actuality, the human personality is much more complex--all the nine types are combined--rather than be separated as the enneagram does to them--and rather than thier being a spectral wing construction there is actually a multi-dimensional wing construction--meaning that an individual ,according to his/her unique development--can access any other type from their base type and make it the secondary--or wing--type. Sound complicated? IT is, precisely becasue the eneeagram makes things harder than what they really are.

The other problem with the Enneagram is the questionairre: as I stated before, the MBTI presents the indidviudal with sets of either/or questions for each function(they are mixed together inthe questionairre):for instance, "Are you a talkative person or a quiet person?" The response determines whether you are introverted or extroverted. By matching the answers with their corresponidnf functions, the primary combination of functions is determined and is presented asd your type. The ennegram on the other hand has put togehter a relatively arbitrary series of questions to determine on'es type: whereas the MBTI employs 4 different sections of either/or questions, the enneagram is composed of MBTI function questions as well as questions that help determine particualr attitiudes(are you a helper?a romatic?). These are all combinded and majority answers are the determing factor in establishing type. THe obvious problem with this is that by establishing what a persond tends to most, it often virtually eliminates other aspects of a person's persnality that might in fact be integral to that person's make-up. For instance, I scored very high in the5,1,and8 types but very low in the 9,6, and 2 types. Althoough I acknowlege that AI have very few 9 or 6 factors(althouhg Iwant world peace very badly), that fact isn't true of 2 traits. One of my primary concerns is Humanity--much of my work was inspired by wanting to better it--and I am involved in numerous organizattions concerned with bettering the Human condition(HFH and Amnesty International to the Planetary Society and Greenpeace). Yet according to my enneagram scores I may as well have no compassion or concern for Humanity inside me. THe reason? The questions that help determine 2 traits in an indiviudal primarily focus on PERSOAL UP-CLOSE HELP:Would you like to be a doctor? Do you like to give advice? This is sytark contrast to the way in which I express my 2 traitsm, which concerns regrading Humanity in the abstract and helping it by working on the broad factors that effect it rather than on the personal,one to onelevel. So 2 traits are very deeply a part of who I am, but by examining my enneagram results you wouldn't l=know it.

The other problem with the standard wing theory is the scores:it is not at all logical--it is in fact purely iirational--to assert that that one's highest score determinbes one's type while simulataneoyusly asserting that the NEXT HIOGHEST SCORE IS not the wing type. If the highest score indicvates what type one primaily operates from then the second highest score should determine what type they primarily operate from NEXT. by FOLLOWING THE STANDARD THEORY ONE is not detriming what ones personality is but what their enneatype is--meaning that they begin to view themselves in terms of the enneagram instead of simply using the ennegram as a an example. In other words, the ennegram itself acts as a context influence. That is not good.

In truth, however, the point may as well be moot--as I stated before the defining trait of HUmankinfd is reason--without it we are mearely a very complicared system of drives and emoters that exist but have no meaning. Emotions by themselves are irrelavent--they only obtain meaning when consciousness exists to contemplate them. the advancement of the Human speciss will be the result of reason becoming more and more powerful(currently most of Hunmanity i still ruled primarily by drives and emotions). As this happens new degrees of consciousb=ness will occur and individual wills will become sdtronger and more defined. Emotions will be subjugated to reason--they will not cease to exist(as the early view of Vulcans was conceived) but will instead be dierected and defined by the individual.In other words emotions like anger will be felt but instead of being wasted aby mindless actions and venting, the energy from on'e anger will simply be internalized and directed in some manner(if say I am angry at a human condition rather than punching a hole in a wall, I would simply control my fury and direct its energy towards some means of eliminating the condition. I am basically describing Humanity her as spirtual vulcans, if you will. Humans will have the capability of creating themselves.

Although I generally hate to talk about myself, I am my own best example so it is logical for me to to go that route:

I was born prematurely(a whopping 3 pounds 14 ounces). uNDOUBTEDLY DUE TO MY PARENT'S INITIAL TREATMENT OF ME AS AN INFANT, i HAVE SINCE MY EARLIST AWARENESS felt isolated(I didn't consciously know this as a youth becasue that's what I grew into)I have aslo always been hyperaware of myself and others. The combination made me an extremely self-reliant and precocious youth: I learned too read at age5(adult books at age 7)and I was constantly trying to find out the answers to everything. Precisely becasue of the isolation from my parents and siblings, most of my early development was less effected by emotional factors and I also wasn't really influenced by externa influences like religion(although my mother was a devout catholic). Instead the primary influences on my early development were what I got from books and from books, the radio, and tv==most of which primarily had to do with science and nature and ironically myths and legends. Although the idea of God had a huge effect upon me,my objective nature and the dichotmy between my impression of what God was and what I later found religions thought God to be casues my rejection of religioon at the early age of 8 before it ever even had a grasp on me. That same year my father died and My isolation was made more complete. It was at this time that I began to delcve into myths and legends and biograohies and they shaped how I see myself and the world. I began engage in vigorous physical activity evry day to match my learning abilities. These early influeces are what really define--my love of science and learing, of physcial activity, and of helping people are all the result of a belief in the individual will to create itself and our conditions. Ihavein other words largely been responsible for creating myself over the years. By abandong all preconceptions of self and all other things and by simply believeing you can, you can define yourself.. It is for this reason that I assert that the enneagram is poor in its attempts to help persons self-actualize. In the end, it's the human individual that determines what they are going to be--those who deny that are those whom are ruled by influences rahter than bein g the ruler.

If there are any questions, I will gladly explain further but I won't be able to do so for at least two weeks.

As LAo TSu said seek the TAo=-=center.

To Life!

MAverick

Follow Ups:

Re: As I was saying... pork ^(oo)^ 01:48:15 03/07/00 (3)
- The problem with Motivation Cory 15:47:52 03/07/00 (2)
  - Re: The problem with Motivation pork ^(oo)^ 01:17:53 03/08/00 (1)
    - Thank you Cory 02:12:31 03/08/00 (0)

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: : Travis, : I apologize for such a delayed response but soon after I posted my last post here I got too busy with my work : and studies to do much else. I had planned on writing a detailed post(much like yours) to explain my views : concerning the matter when I had time anyways, so instead of addressing your post point by point I'll simply : provide my viewpoint. I emphasize however that I am providing a FULL explanation complete with details--I will : be writing it in the same fasshion that I write ALL my scientific papers which means that I reccomend you read it : as if you weere reading it from a journal rather than as if it were addressed to you personally. I also will be using : myself as my pprime example since obviously I know myself better than I know any other example. : Howevewr,before I ontinue I feel I must provide the following background so that there is no further : misunderstandings between us: I am currently a student majoring in neurobiology and minoring in physics. The : focus of my interests is the nature and evolution of consciousness. More specifically, I am concerned with : how--once the nature of consciousness has been more or less defined--Human beings can learn to control their : own evolution. Since this is my planned life's work, I obviously take the matter very seriously and am very : knowledable on the subject simply because I am FORCED to be. Although Still a student, I am not a layman and : that means I have knowlege on the subject of the Human mind and personality that the majority of those who : post here--through no fault of their own, of course(not evryone wants to be a neurobilogist)--do not. I state this : because the following explanatiion is based on a solid background in this field, provided by someone with vested : interest in having the OBJECTIVE TRUTH--otherwiuse I will be unable to accomplish anything that I wish to; I : also state it to answer your previous question of why I visited this site if I didn't really respect the Enneagram: the : fact is that I approach this site and most other message boards on the internet in the same manner that I approach : a news site or a crossword puzzle--it is something that Id do in my spare time while working--although I don't : "buy" the ennagramm, it is always fun to discuss personality and I approach discussions of the eenaagram in the : same manner as I would approach say a discussionf time travel--although I do not believe it is possible(and have : ample evidence for that reasoning) it is great fun to discuss the possiblities if it WERE. : With that said: : THE PROBLEM WITH THE ENNEGRAM : The universe, physicists have found, is composed of two things:energy(as quanta, or radiation) and matter, which : is the asssemblage of infintisemal(sic)particals caloled quarks--we live in a quantum universe. Further, it has been : found that this quantum universe is ruled by the uncertainty principle, which states that you can nevr know the : precise location and momentunm of a particle at the same time becasue the act of measuring one changes the : other. This principle helped give birth to Complexity(Chaos)theory. Rearch into this are together with emrging : evidence seems to indicate that the uiverse evolved out a quantum informatuion flux--that the random interactions : of quantum particles eventually "jumbled" together into a particular fashion that resulted in a domino--or : avalanche--effect. Just as a snow ball rolling down a mountainside increses in mass as it goes, the random : ordering of particles led to an increse in order that hasn't stopped. The ordering of this qunatum information has : increased to the point that the un iverse has become conscious of itself in the form of conscious beings(us and : whoever else mihgt be out there where no one has boldly gone before). In other words, Human beings are : "plugged in" to the universe--we are a aprt of it. That sounds absurdly obvious but most Human beings seem : either to never realize it or to forget it(most notably, this fact is seen in religious bveliefs and the way humans : generally approach and react to nature and themselves). This is importasnt becasue it means that consciousness is : the order underlying the chaotic complexity of the quantum flux.it means that although still largely chaotic, they : system is increasining in order as consciousness evolves(it is this I am primarily interested in--although precsely : due to the uncertainty principle there will always be chaos, the development of consciousness can possibl;e lead : to a state where conscious beings can more or less "stave it off" simply becasue being conscious provides mor : powere than not being conscious). : Most people have trouble envisioing evolution(for that is what was just described)becasue they don't understand : how order could come from chaos, how an "accident" coyuld have led to our development. Their failure to : understabn evolution is precisely becasue they are entrenched in it--since they are conscious--are DEFINED BY : CONSCIOUSNEE--THEY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT WHICH THEY ARE nOT and yet ARE AT : THE SAME TIME. The deeper consciousnnes has still eluded them--they are aware that they are aware but are : unable to pul themselves away to an objective perspective. For instance, evolution is often viewd as an ascension : but in reality it is nothing of the soert burt rather simoply an increase in order-as a aprt of the objective uiniverse : we are simply an increase in order a process and the only reason such importance is put on that process is : becasue we put it there(and interesting enough the very act of being awre of the order increases order). In short, : HUmans not only are handicapped by the subjectivity oif their own personal emotions and thoughts but they are : handicapped by the subjectivity OF BEING CONSCIOUS AT ALL. Without consciousness in the uiverse, the : universe basically collpses on itself--it becomes chaotic totally once again becasue without awareness of : existence, it basically does not exist at al as we know it but instead returns to a flux. Without awareness there is : no way to predict anything so evrything is up for grabs. : So precisely becasue Human beings are a aprt of a process, most are unable to view themselves or the universe : objectively--for most it is like trying to see their own face but never trying to use a mirror(objectivity) to do so. : Whether they like to admit it or not, the majority of Human beings are are evidence of the process--most are : ruled by the programming Nature wired into them(emotions, drives, etc.)and by previous information systems that : were passed on to them(relions, political beliefs, etc.)and in that fact is the evidence that despite the order that : has emerged thwere is still a great deal of chaos. It is with the advance ment of reason partially brought on by the : development of external infornmation storage and science that order has increased both in individual Human : minds and in cvilization as a whole(moving from tribal to more globalistic society). : Here then is the main point: order emerged from chaos which resulted in consciousness. Consciousness is : EVERYTHING becasue without it the universe i rendered moot. Conscious beings are a part of the universe so : basically we are the "mind of the universe". Since consciousnees is verything nad we are conscious then the : obviously the most important thing for us to do is further the developmenbt of consciousness(and thus order). The : most defining trait of conscious being si s the existence of reason. Everything that we value in ourselves is due to : reason--without it we would still exist like the animals, ruled by primal drives and emotions(our value of emotions : is due to reason--we value love and jou for isntance becasue we are AWARWE AND CAPABLE OF : THINKING ABOUT THEM--the animals have emotions too(limbic region of the brain)but do not have reason : so the emotions are just that--motive facors.We make love romantic--dogs can't). : In short, the defining trait of Hunman beings is our reason and as such it is reason that should be cultivated more : than any othert thing in order to advance as individuals and as a race of beings. The ultimate goal would be to : advance reason and will in individuals to the point that they learnt to integrate themselves properely--this would : mean controlling one's emotions and channeling them properly(as oppoesed to eliminating them which is : impossibl;e and unwanted, the goal is to rule your emtions rather than--as most people do--let them rule you).. : RThe ultimate goal the--in terms of the Enneagram--is to devlop reason, which means the integration of all the : types from the center(5) which results in trascendance. Ultimately the evolution weould lead to indiviudals being : able to exist self-contained only linking to others when they wanted to. : The problem with the Enneagram isn't that its wrong(some of it at least) it's that its inaccurate and ,mostly, : obsolete. Given what we know of physicws and how it relates to the mind and given that Human beings are : consciouss and thus have wills and capable of being aware of their true development, then they are capable of : changing anthemselves, creating themselves. It is this self awareness this ability to perceive one's own individual : will and use it that defines an inidvidual--evrything else--emotions,drives, and enviromental influences) are : rendered moot since a person is capable of transcending them and creating him/herself. Using the ennegram to : assess ones personality given what we know of neurobiology and physics is like using a 19th century chemistry : book in a modern lab--some of it will be correct, but most of it isn't re;lavent and can even be detrimental to what : one wants to accomplish.The ideal persoanlity questionaire is basically a self-dialogue--I stated before that I : backed the MBTI although I didn't at first--here's why: I have beeen engaged in neurobilogical research and its : relation to personality since my early teens and si I was always skeptical of personality questionaires. It wan't until : I took the MBTI test that I encountered something scientific--I know myself inside out through introspection and : I was stunnded when I took the test and it described a great deal about me accurately. The reason? The MBTI : acknoweldges the existence of ACTUAL FUNCTIONS--intooversion and extroversion, judging and perceiving, : etc.) that exist in an either/or fashin--yuou can tell an introverted person from an extroverted person : unambiguously for instance. Further, what function a person utilizes is readily determined by a series of qrelated : questions. The entire questionairre simply asts as a self-dialogue for those who didn't know what to ask and how : to determine correctly.As such, it can used by a person to improve themselves. The Ennegram, however, was : derived not from mental functions but from a mixture of observed emotional states, roles, andsuperstitious beliefs. : It was derived at a n earlier time in Human evolution when people were less evolved than they are today. : Emotions ruled much more then than today(and that is saying alot) as the eir religious beliefs indicate(polytheism). : The Enneagram may have worlked well then precisely becasue people were less complex and roles were much : more defined--one had no trouble pointing out 1's(the troublemakers),2's(the healers),3's(the the flamboyant : playboys, 4's(the a3RTISTS;5'S(THE WSAGES, 6'S(THE SOLDIERS,7'S, THE : PLEASURE-SEEKERS.8'S(THE KINGS,GENRALS,ETC. AND 9'S(THE MEDIators). In any primitive : society enneatypes are more readily asessed precisely becasue they grew into those roles(Alexander the Great fo : instance was a megalo,maniac, a surefire 8--undoubtyedly largely gbecasue he was rasied that way).. The : enneagram is not so easily applied to individuals who are much more complex than Humans were centurues ago. : However, let's leave that aside--my irritstion with those who push the ennagram isn't so much its primitive origin, : but rather the fact that a questionaire has been attached to it. Unlike the MBTI which provuides questions to : determine individual either/or FUNCTIONS that together constitute a type, the Enneagram ------------------ : Continued here: : merely provides 9 hypothetical types that are not actual functions of the mind but are rather types used to decribe observed behavior. The MBTI is specific, the enneagram non-specific. The origanotrs of the modern enneagram questionaire did nothing more than take ancient archtypes(and yes they are ancient--the 9 types were described in ancient times by different peoples without the actual use of the enneagram itself),try to determine the motivating factors behind eavh type, and then create a questionaire to determine how those factors appliy to indivuduals. This would be fine if they were just trying to help people understand their personality in one particular way. However, they wrongly go further by srating that the enneagram is an ACTUAL description of personality FUNCTIOnS whern they clearly are not. THe MBTI describes functions--as stated abogve, clearly defined dual either/or functions. The 9 types do exist but they are just ONE perspective of the human personality and it is a very imprecise one at that. Whereas the MBTI types are determinded by function combinations, the enneagram types(thinker,etc)attempt to act as FUNCTIONS THEMSELVES. This is not scienticific or realistic at all. This is particularly true with regard to the entire wing system. The biggest disagreement we had was over wing theory. The enegram standard wing theory's problem is that it treats the human mind as 2-dimensional rather than multi-dimensional as it actually is. The 9 types are not what a perosn is they are descriptions of what that person is. All 9 types exist in each person to varying degrees, it's just that oe type is primarily the type they act from ACCORDING TO THE ENNEAGRAM. in actuality, the human personality is much more complex--all the nine types are combined--rather than be separated as the enneagram does to them--and rather than thier being a spectral wing construction there is actually a multi-dimensional wing construction--meaning that an individual ,according to his/her unique development--can access any other type from their base type and make it the secondary--or wing--type. Sound complicated? IT is, precisely becasue the eneeagram makes things harder than what they really are. : The other problem with the Enneagram is the questionairre: as I stated before, the MBTI presents the indidviudal with sets of either/or questions for each function(they are mixed together inthe questionairre):for instance, "Are you a talkative person or a quiet person?" The response determines whether you are introverted or extroverted. By matching the answers with their corresponidnf functions, the primary combination of functions is determined and is presented asd your type. The ennegram on the other hand has put togehter a relatively arbitrary series of questions to determine on'es type: whereas the MBTI employs 4 different sections of either/or questions, the enneagram is composed of MBTI function questions as well as questions that help determine particualr attitiudes(are you a helper?a romatic?). These are all combinded and majority answers are the determing factor in establishing type. THe obvious problem with this is that by establishing what a persond tends to most, it often virtually eliminates other aspects of a person's persnality that might in fact be integral to that person's make-up. For instance, I scored very high in the5,1,and8 types but very low in the 9,6, and 2 types. Althoough I acknowlege that AI have very few 9 or 6 factors(althouhg Iwant world peace very badly), that fact isn't true of 2 traits. One of my primary concerns is Humanity--much of my work was inspired by wanting to better it--and I am involved in numerous organizattions concerned with bettering the Human condition(HFH and Amnesty International to the Planetary Society and Greenpeace). Yet according to my enneagram scores I may as well have no compassion or concern for Humanity inside me. THe reason? The questions that help determine 2 traits in an indiviudal primarily focus on PERSOAL UP-CLOSE HELP:Would you like to be a doctor? Do you like to give advice? This is sytark contrast to the way in which I express my 2 traitsm, which concerns regrading Humanity in the abstract and helping it by working on the broad factors that effect it rather than on the personal,one to onelevel. So 2 traits are very deeply a part of who I am, but by examining my enneagram results you wouldn't l=know it. : The other problem with the standard wing theory is the scores:it is not at all logical--it is in fact purely iirational--to assert that that one's highest score determinbes one's type while simulataneoyusly asserting that the NEXT HIOGHEST SCORE IS not the wing type. If the highest score indicvates what type one primaily operates from then the second highest score should determine what type they primarily operate from NEXT. by FOLLOWING THE STANDARD THEORY ONE is not detriming what ones personality is but what their enneatype is--meaning that they begin to view themselves in terms of the enneagram instead of simply using the ennegram as a an example. In other words, the ennegram itself acts as a context influence. That is not good. : In truth, however, the point may as well be moot--as I stated before the defining trait of HUmankinfd is reason--without it we are mearely a very complicared system of drives and emoters that exist but have no meaning. Emotions by themselves are irrelavent--they only obtain meaning when consciousness exists to contemplate them. the advancement of the Human speciss will be the result of reason becoming more and more powerful(currently most of Hunmanity i still ruled primarily by drives and emotions). As this happens new degrees of consciousb=ness will occur and individual wills will become sdtronger and more defined. Emotions will be subjugated to reason--they will not cease to exist(as the early view of Vulcans was conceived) but will instead be dierected and defined by the individual.In other words emotions like anger will be felt but instead of being wasted aby mindless actions and venting, the energy from on'e anger will simply be internalized and directed in some manner(if say I am angry at a human condition rather than punching a hole in a wall, I would simply control my fury and direct its energy towards some means of eliminating the condition. I am basically describing Humanity her as spirtual vulcans, if you will. Humans will have the capability of creating themselves. : Although I generally hate to talk about myself, I am my own best example so it is logical for me to to go that route: : I was born prematurely(a whopping 3 pounds 14 ounces). uNDOUBTEDLY DUE TO MY PARENT'S INITIAL TREATMENT OF ME AS AN INFANT, i HAVE SINCE MY EARLIST AWARENESS felt isolated(I didn't consciously know this as a youth becasue that's what I grew into)I have aslo always been hyperaware of myself and others. The combination made me an extremely self-reliant and precocious youth: I learned too read at age5(adult books at age 7)and I was constantly trying to find out the answers to everything. Precisely becasue of the isolation from my parents and siblings, most of my early development was less effected by emotional factors and I also wasn't really influenced by externa influences like religion(although my mother was a devout catholic). Instead the primary influences on my early development were what I got from books and from books, the radio, and tv==most of which primarily had to do with science and nature and ironically myths and legends. Although the idea of God had a huge effect upon me,my objective nature and the dichotmy between my impression of what God was and what I later found religions thought God to be casues my rejection of religioon at the early age of 8 before it ever even had a grasp on me. That same year my father died and My isolation was made more complete. It was at this time that I began to delcve into myths and legends and biograohies and they shaped how I see myself and the world. I began engage in vigorous physical activity evry day to match my learning abilities. These early influeces are what really define--my love of science and learing, of physcial activity, and of helping people are all the result of a belief in the individual will to create itself and our conditions. Ihavein other words largely been responsible for creating myself over the years. By abandong all preconceptions of self and all other things and by simply believeing you can, you can define yourself.. It is for this reason that I assert that the enneagram is poor in its attempts to help persons self-actualize. In the end, it's the human individual that determines what they are going to be--those who deny that are those whom are ruled by influences rahter than bein g the ruler. : If there are any questions, I will gladly explain further but I won't be able to do so for at least two weeks. : As LAo TSu said seek the TAo=-=center. : To Life! : MAverick

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