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: Thanks for answering my questions. Yes, I'm a skeptic of this system, but also rather drawn by it. Nice looking symbol I must admit... : : : : As well the Enneagram presupposes that there IS a core motivation in the first place. It negates the possibility that people aren't constantly striving for something, and not reacting to their environment. : : Unless you're talking about dead people, I must admit I'm mystified by that question. Is that supposed to be a Zen thing or something? : No, I'm insinuating something similar to Behaviorism here. Maybe our minds aren't something that follows a telelogical path (ie, driven by the future), but instead simply responds to present stimuli. Skinner was probably more eloquent than me. : : : : Why does motivation have to be "for life"? Couldn't a person live their first half of their life as a Three, then as a Five, with different motivations? : : Why not? Who knows? Psychologists and experienced parents declare that unalterable qualities of personality are fixed by the time you're 3 or 4 years old, and that given that foundation, people really don't change. And in my experience, Fives don't change into Threes, or vice-versa, regardless of how many "personal success seminars" they attend. : Yes, I was reading about that tonight. But just because there are some unalterable qualities to us, doesn't mean Motivation is part of it. Perhaps someone is just simply irascible all their life, can't really change it or anything...but that doesn't mean the desire for knowledge is a driving force All their life. : : : : How sure are you that there are Nine "core motivations"? Why not Ten? Or Eleven? Or maybe there's only Six? : : There could be a googol, for all I know (for trivia hunters, that's 10E+100, which is roughly the number of molecules in the known Universe). Yet, the interpretation of human passions via the Enneagram associates a triadic system in order to *loosely* apply a few (say, nine) general guiding points along the *spectrum* of psychological motivations. When I say "I'm on the line between 4 and 2," you might ask yourself, "How many distinguishable points are there on the line between 4 and 2? How many points are mathematically possible on that line? Get the "point?" Same goes for the statement "I'm on the outer circle between 3 and 4." : Good explanation. The more motivations, the more accurate you become...although Nine seems it can work out fairly well for a basic minimum. : : : : Finally, behavior is Closely related to motivation. It really isn't that random. This means for the most part you can accurately find someone's motivation simply by observing their behavior. : : Again, we must remember that the psychological motivations can be dealt with in any number of ways. Do you mean to say that if you heard, of a complete stranger, "He is feeling Envious," that you could predict his behavior as a consequence without knowing him? Forget situation specifics such as *why* he's feeling Envious. That's beyond the reach of the Enneagram's scope. All you know is that he's experiencing the psychological drive represented on or near point 4 on the Enneagram. You don't know a damn thing about his upbringing, his personal aptitudes, his cultural or familial programming. I'm sure you might say "Yes, I can predict the behavioral manifestation of Envy in any of the billions of various human beings on this Earth," in which case I suggest you give yourself a long, hard reality check. : Ok maybe not behavior, but personality traits. What I originally meant to imply was something like since Ones have a desire to be right or perfect, then the majority of Ones will have a perfectionist quality to them, and be rational (average to unhealthy Ones notwithstanding). The desire to be right and perfect doesn't really mix well with an impulsive, excessive personality. That is what I was meaning. : : : : The reason observable behavior should be emphasized more is that it is more closer to an objective science than this subjective guessing of motivation. You can actually panel people by observable traits and see what patterns they would fall into. With motivation, it becomes more open to interpretation and personal bias. : : Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, Cory. I might repeat your statement, except in the opposite fashion: you would seem, from what that statement may reveal of your character, to be a behaviorist. If that's so, then quit driving yourself crazy with the Enneagram. It speaks a foreign language to your ears, just as the MB speaks a foreign language, for a relatively large part, to me. I've watched you struggling for months over your Enneatype, rejecting this or that type because you didn't comply with the set of "traits" associated to it by the pop-psych press. : I can accept our differences. I just rely on a more observable, provable type of system. It doesn't negate the enneagram's value, but it does shake my faith in it. I'm not a behaviorist however, although I do agree with some of the tenents of it. Some behaviorists deny consciousness even exists, and that's just going too far. : : : : I really would like to expound on this more, but unfortunately Extraverted Thinking is an inferior function of mine. =o) I got many more qualms about the Enneagram, although they're not much about the whole motivation issue. : : You need to find an MB board. :) : I'll save you the trouble of me. I'll try and find one (havent yet) so I can rant on about how much I love the MB =o) : -Cory

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