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Re: Hillary Clinton, Al Gore

Re: Hillary Clinton, Al Gore

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Posted by Dave Kelly on April 05, 2000 at 14:28:39:

In Reply to: Hillary Clinton, Al Gore posted by Jan den Breejen on April 05, 2000 at 03:44:43:

Al Gore is very Conscientious. Hillary Clinton I have typed as Sensitive (close cousin of the Conscientious). What we see in the public Hillary, I think, is a counterphobic reaction to social anxiety, or social phobia. She always has such a stiff, stricken look. When she speaks before a group, she only pretends to make eye contact; her eyes are going everywhere, up and off to the right, then off to the left, then down and around, but never catching anyone else's eyes.

Here are some of Oldham's criteria:

Individuals with the Sensitive personality style prefer the known to the unknown. They are comfortable with, even inspired by, habit, repetition, and routine.
+++I think she's more dependent on her husband than her PR would have us believe. Perhaps that's why she hasn't left him throughout all those years- she prefers the devil she knows.

Sensitive individuals care deeply about what other people think of them.
+++I do sense in Hillary a fear of negative evaluation and social rejection. Her superwoman posture is mostly a compensation for some hidden fear of inferiority.

They behave with deliberate discretion in their dealings with others. They do not make hasty judgments or jump in before they know what is appropriate.
+++Hillary's got Hamlet's Syndrome - can't make a quick decision; her approach to running for the Senate is a good example.

Socially they take care to maintain a courteous, self-restrained demeanor.
+++Hillary's the kind woman who's called a frigid "Snow Queen" in public but whose friends insist that in private with friends and family she's the most warn and friendly person you'd ever want to meet, just like the one Oldham has in his book in the Sensitive chapter.

They function best in scripted settings, vocationally and socially: when they know precisely what is expected of them, how they are supposed to relate to others, and what they are expected to say.
+++Anyone who's watched her these last eight years can see that's this is true about Hillary.

Sensitive men and women are not quick to share their innermost thoughts and feelings with others, even those they know well.
+++She's a very private person. Throughout the Whitewater and other investigations we heard a number of times that the First Lady was surprised and appalled by the assault on her personal privacy that she experienced since coming to Washington. She would have liked to have imposed the same wall of privacy for herself, that she imposed upon the press for her daughter. And this was her basic defense of her husband in Monicagate - that it was a private matter between her and her husband.

All in all, I think that she's much more likely to be the Senstive type rather than the Conscientious.

Dave

: Hillary Clinton and Al Gore - the 'stiff ones': two of a kind

: Case text:

: A DISTRAUGHT Hillary Clinton is agonizing over the toughest decision she's ever faced: She must divorce Bill or abandon the greatest dream of her life! Her own mother is urging her to dump the President and her political strategists agree. Trapped in a terrible dilemma, Hillary is devastated that her personal loyalty could destroy her run for Senate and her entire political career. Hillary's mother has rushed to her daughter's side - offering advice and comfort. Recent polls in tbe New Vork Senate race show the fust Lady losing support - especially among women who are angry tbat she never struck back at ber skirt-chasing hubby. But Hillary, who's stood by Bill's side through thick and thin, doesn't want to humiliate ber busband by making him tbe first President to be divorced while in office. "The decision is tearing ber up. She's in agony," an insider told. "Hillary stays up late in her bedroom talking on the phone with her closest friends about her next move. She is torn by what to do." Top Hillary supporter Rosie O'Donnell went so far as to tell an interviewer: "I wish that she was running for Senate as a divorcee." While some might see a divorce announcement as a cynical election strategy, top independent pollster John Zogby told: "It would certainly attract working women and young female voters who feel she should have left her husband long ago." And Hillary needs all the help she can get! A year ago, a poll conducted by the Marist Institute for Public Opinion showed she had the support of 58 percent of women, compared to on1y 34 percent for her opponent, New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. By February 23, Hillary's support among women had plummeted 14 points to 44 percent -while Giuliani had climbed impressively to 43 percent. A Washington, D.C., insider laid it on the line: "If Hillary cannot get enough women behind her, she will lose the Senate race - so it's time for drastic measures and Hillary's mother knows that." The First Lady's politically attuned mother Dorothy has seen the handwriting on the wall and is waging a forceful campaign for Hillary to boot Bill - for political and personal reasons. A source close to the Clintons revealed: "Dorothy has told Hillary, 'Bill didn't need you when he was riding high. He took his personal pleasures elsewhere and you had to swallow your pride. " 'Now the shoe is on the other foot - and you don't need him.' " Divulged an inside source: "Hillary told an aide, 'Being married to Bill is actually a political liability with women. At first they saw me as a victim and rallied to my support.' " But now many of them have turned against her, added the source, "for sticking with a husband who's an obvious cheat and lecher." Advisers are telling Hillary that by booting Bill she can "reinvent her image as a tough, strong woman, who will not stand to be humiliated," divulged a well-placed source. "But she doesn't want to destroy Bill 's presidential legacy by making him the first President to be
: divorced in office. Yet if she doesn't, she might sacrifice the biggest dream of her life-holding political office. "Hillary has one goal in life - to become President. That's why the Senate race is so important to her. She is in agony over this devastating choice. "The entire ordeal has left her crushed and sad - causing her to emotionally collapse and break down behind the scenes." The storm-tossed Senate candidate is also deeply concerned about how her fragile 20-year-old daughter Chelsea would take a divorce. Hillary's putting on a brave front (rigidity and emotional control is very typical for N1 characters; they PERSIST highly disciplined with things that many other people would have stopped with very soon; JdB) but is broken up on the inside, declared the Washington insider. 'She admitted she needed her mom's support - and Dorothy went to her side. "As strong-minded and capable as Hillary is, she really needed her mother because she got so depressed over the difficult decision facing her. " Hillary and her mom have gotten together at the First Lady's new Chappaqua, NY, home to brainstorm, revealed the insider. Dorothy, who's never been closer to her daughter, even spent the first night with her in Eleanol Chappaqua - and has been a regular presence there ever since. The First Lady is glad that someone is "stepping in to help her hold it together emotionally," divulged the insider. And she'll need that support as she bravely pursues the Senate race in the face of public humiliation. On March 11, she became the butt of painful jokes at an annual show put on by the Inner Circle, a group of 120 reporters who cover New York's City Hall. The black-tie charity affair wwas attended by 1,000 persons including Mayor Giuliani to watch Hillary's reactions. The First Lady laughed politely when a reporter playing her on stage said "We live in Chappaqua no, - that's Indian for 'Land of Separate Bedrooms.' " Hillary forced a wide smile, then held it FROZEN in place until the roaring laughter died down. In a musical number "Just Watch Hillary," she again took it on the chin a the First Lady character sang: "Some people say; that I'm a dope to stick with Bill. .." In one slashing skit, "Hillary" winds up in jail together with sexpot Jennifer Lopez. The Bill Clinton character bails out Jennifer - but leaves "Hillary" behind bars! On this occasion,the First Lady was prepared for the verbal assault. One of her staff members had attended the dress rehearsal and took notes - then full briefed her. The insider concluded "While the future is still unclear, Hillary is sure of one thing. "She told me, 'I am not returning to Arkansas. Bill can spend the rest of his days in that state and that may be heaven for him but for me, it's not.'

: Jan's Comments -
: Hillary Clinton is a good example of a fanatical societal crusader/reformer who's political programs failed because she's too fanatic and tries to project too holy an image. Her idealistic reforms (compassion with the suffering of the poor) were a little too far fetched and too un-compromising to get implemented politically. She gives you the impression of being a rigid and calculated woman (her political fate was tied up with Bill in the adultery cases so her stay with him seems not completely love-motivated) She gives a bit the same impression Al Gore does who's natural rigid style is also 'restyled' by N3 pr people, Al now tries to behave spontaneous but because it doesn't fit with his natural style he often looks odd.

: Hillary and Al will never be very popular - western democracies are not based on Platonic N1-ish principles - these kinda characters often experience relational/image problems because they lack interpersonal warmth and skills caused by their obsessive task focus. (Hillary is reported as angrily shouting in the White House to Bill that she wanted to have sex more that 2 times a year...) Perhaps the leisurely/putty character of Bill made their relation (and his policy!) not a total disaster for some time. Hillary seems to be a person who is convinced of the truth of her opinions and sticks with it; which makes winning a discussion difficult for her partner. Life is very difficult for Hillary-like characters (and their close partners) because they want to make decisions as perfect as can be; pondering long on all pro's and con's before making up their minds. That's the process Hillary goes through now.

: When looking at the Oldham/DSMIV classification, the Conscientious/Obsessive style (same as Naranjo N1 character style) makes the best match with Hillary and Al's character:

: - 'works very hard, and is capable of intense single-minded effort'(to the neglect of relationships)
: - left brainers (causes their un-warm image)
: - The right thing - strong (moral) values and opinions; un-compromising
: - Need to be right and to do things right (i.e. without any flaws); which of course needs a lot of time for pondering and causes 'agony' to the person
: - PERSEVERANCE (headstrong/obstinate/'through thick and thin') - they stick to their convictions and opinions (devotion)

: Jan
:

Follow Ups:

Re: Hillary Clinton, Al Gore Jan den Breejen 06:05:24 04/06/00 (8)
- Re: Hillary Clinton, Al Gore Dave Kelly 10:35:20 04/06/00 (7)
  - The magic source for reliably determining your Oldham style Jan den Breejen 04:43:25 04/07/00 (5)
    - Re: The magic source for reliably determining your Oldham style Dave Kelly 10:50:24 04/07/00 (4)
      - Re: The magic source for reliably determining your Oldham style Jan 07:13:42 04/08/00 (3)
        
        Re: The magic source for reliably determining your Oldham style Dave Kelly 11:21:59 04/08/00 (2)
        
        Re: The magic source for reliably determining your Oldham style Jan den Breejen 12:33:22 04/09/00 (0)
        
        Re: The magic source for reliably determining your Oldham style Dave Kelly 16:58:58 04/08/00 (0)
  - What I don't get... Cory 15:29:46 04/06/00 (0)
Hillary a 4 NF? You cant be serious! Cory [nt] 15:58:21 04/05/00 (5)
- Re: Hillary a 4 NF? You cant be serious! Dave Kelly 17:40:37 04/05/00 (4)
  - Well, then again... Cory 18:53:15 04/05/00 (3)
    - BTW, Cory... Dave Kelly 20:42:05 04/05/00 (0)
    - Re: Well, then again... Dave Kelly 20:06:46 04/05/00 (1)
      - Yes, I would agree either. Cory [nt] 22:11:45 04/05/00 (0)

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: Al Gore is very Conscientious. Hillary Clinton I have typed as Sensitive (close cousin of the Conscientious). What we see in the public Hillary, I think, is a counterphobic reaction to social anxiety, or social phobia. She always has such a stiff, stricken look. When she speaks before a group, she only pretends to make eye contact; her eyes are going everywhere, up and off to the right, then off to the left, then down and around, but never catching anyone else's eyes. : Here are some of Oldham's criteria: : Individuals with the Sensitive personality style prefer the known to the unknown. They are comfortable with, even inspired by, habit, repetition, and routine. : +++I think she's more dependent on her husband than her PR would have us believe. Perhaps that's why she hasn't left him throughout all those years- she prefers the devil she knows. : Sensitive individuals care deeply about what other people think of them. : +++I do sense in Hillary a fear of negative evaluation and social rejection. Her superwoman posture is mostly a compensation for some hidden fear of inferiority. : They behave with deliberate discretion in their dealings with others. They do not make hasty judgments or jump in before they know what is appropriate. : +++Hillary's got Hamlet's Syndrome - can't make a quick decision; her approach to running for the Senate is a good example. : Socially they take care to maintain a courteous, self-restrained demeanor. : +++Hillary's the kind woman who's called a frigid "Snow Queen" in public but whose friends insist that in private with friends and family she's the most warn and friendly person you'd ever want to meet, just like the one Oldham has in his book in the Sensitive chapter. : They function best in scripted settings, vocationally and socially: when they know precisely what is expected of them, how they are supposed to relate to others, and what they are expected to say. : +++Anyone who's watched her these last eight years can see that's this is true about Hillary. : Sensitive men and women are not quick to share their innermost thoughts and feelings with others, even those they know well. : +++She's a very private person. Throughout the Whitewater and other investigations we heard a number of times that the First Lady was surprised and appalled by the assault on her personal privacy that she experienced since coming to Washington. She would have liked to have imposed the same wall of privacy for herself, that she imposed upon the press for her daughter. And this was her basic defense of her husband in Monicagate - that it was a private matter between her and her husband. : All in all, I think that she's much more likely to be the Senstive type rather than the Conscientious. : Dave : : : Hillary Clinton and Al Gore - the 'stiff ones': two of a kind : : Case text: : : A DISTRAUGHT Hillary Clinton is agonizing over the toughest decision she's ever faced: She must divorce Bill or abandon the greatest dream of her life! Her own mother is urging her to dump the President and her political strategists agree. Trapped in a terrible dilemma, Hillary is devastated that her personal loyalty could destroy her run for Senate and her entire political career. Hillary's mother has rushed to her daughter's side - offering advice and comfort. Recent polls in tbe New Vork Senate race show the fust Lady losing support - especially among women who are angry tbat she never struck back at ber skirt-chasing hubby. But Hillary, who's stood by Bill's side through thick and thin, doesn't want to humiliate ber busband by making him tbe first President to be divorced while in office. "The decision is tearing ber up. She's in agony," an insider told. "Hillary stays up late in her bedroom talking on the phone with her closest friends about her next move. She is torn by what to do." Top Hillary supporter Rosie O'Donnell went so far as to tell an interviewer: "I wish that she was running for Senate as a divorcee." While some might see a divorce announcement as a cynical election strategy, top independent pollster John Zogby told: "It would certainly attract working women and young female voters who feel she should have left her husband long ago." And Hillary needs all the help she can get! A year ago, a poll conducted by the Marist Institute for Public Opinion showed she had the support of 58 percent of women, compared to on1y 34 percent for her opponent, New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. By February 23, Hillary's support among women had plummeted 14 points to 44 percent -while Giuliani had climbed impressively to 43 percent. A Washington, D.C., insider laid it on the line: "If Hillary cannot get enough women behind her, she will lose the Senate race - so it's time for drastic measures and Hillary's mother knows that." The First Lady's politically attuned mother Dorothy has seen the handwriting on the wall and is waging a forceful campaign for Hillary to boot Bill - for political and personal reasons. A source close to the Clintons revealed: "Dorothy has told Hillary, 'Bill didn't need you when he was riding high. He took his personal pleasures elsewhere and you had to swallow your pride. " 'Now the shoe is on the other foot - and you don't need him.' " Divulged an inside source: "Hillary told an aide, 'Being married to Bill is actually a political liability with women. At first they saw me as a victim and rallied to my support.' " But now many of them have turned against her, added the source, "for sticking with a husband who's an obvious cheat and lecher." Advisers are telling Hillary that by booting Bill she can "reinvent her image as a tough, strong woman, who will not stand to be humiliated," divulged a well-placed source. "But she doesn't want to destroy Bill 's presidential legacy by making him the first President to be : : divorced in office. Yet if she doesn't, she might sacrifice the biggest dream of her life-holding political office. "Hillary has one goal in life - to become President. That's why the Senate race is so important to her. She is in agony over this devastating choice. "The entire ordeal has left her crushed and sad - causing her to emotionally collapse and break down behind the scenes." The storm-tossed Senate candidate is also deeply concerned about how her fragile 20-year-old daughter Chelsea would take a divorce. Hillary's putting on a brave front (rigidity and emotional control is very typical for N1 characters; they PERSIST highly disciplined with things that many other people would have stopped with very soon; JdB) but is broken up on the inside, declared the Washington insider. 'She admitted she needed her mom's support - and Dorothy went to her side. "As strong-minded and capable as Hillary is, she really needed her mother because she got so depressed over the difficult decision facing her. " Hillary and her mom have gotten together at the First Lady's new Chappaqua, NY, home to brainstorm, revealed the insider. Dorothy, who's never been closer to her daughter, even spent the first night with her in Eleanol Chappaqua - and has been a regular presence there ever since. The First Lady is glad that someone is "stepping in to help her hold it together emotionally," divulged the insider. And she'll need that support as she bravely pursues the Senate race in the face of public humiliation. On March 11, she became the butt of painful jokes at an annual show put on by the Inner Circle, a group of 120 reporters who cover New York's City Hall. The black-tie charity affair wwas attended by 1,000 persons including Mayor Giuliani to watch Hillary's reactions. The First Lady laughed politely when a reporter playing her on stage said "We live in Chappaqua no, - that's Indian for 'Land of Separate Bedrooms.' " Hillary forced a wide smile, then held it FROZEN in place until the roaring laughter died down. In a musical number "Just Watch Hillary," she again took it on the chin a the First Lady character sang: "Some people say; that I'm a dope to stick with Bill. .." In one slashing skit, "Hillary" winds up in jail together with sexpot Jennifer Lopez. The Bill Clinton character bails out Jennifer - but leaves "Hillary" behind bars! On this occasion,the First Lady was prepared for the verbal assault. One of her staff members had attended the dress rehearsal and took notes - then full briefed her. The insider concluded "While the future is still unclear, Hillary is sure of one thing. "She told me, 'I am not returning to Arkansas. Bill can spend the rest of his days in that state and that may be heaven for him but for me, it's not.' : : : Jan's Comments - : : Hillary Clinton is a good example of a fanatical societal crusader/reformer who's political programs failed because she's too fanatic and tries to project too holy an image. Her idealistic reforms (compassion with the suffering of the poor) were a little too far fetched and too un-compromising to get implemented politically. She gives you the impression of being a rigid and calculated woman (her political fate was tied up with Bill in the adultery cases so her stay with him seems not completely love-motivated) She gives a bit the same impression Al Gore does who's natural rigid style is also 'restyled' by N3 pr people, Al now tries to behave spontaneous but because it doesn't fit with his natural style he often looks odd. : : Hillary and Al will never be very popular - western democracies are not based on Platonic N1-ish principles - these kinda characters often experience relational/image problems because they lack interpersonal warmth and skills caused by their obsessive task focus. (Hillary is reported as angrily shouting in the White House to Bill that she wanted to have sex more that 2 times a year...) Perhaps the leisurely/putty character of Bill made their relation (and his policy!) not a total disaster for some time. Hillary seems to be a person who is convinced of the truth of her opinions and sticks with it; which makes winning a discussion difficult for her partner. Life is very difficult for Hillary-like characters (and their close partners) because they want to make decisions as perfect as can be; pondering long on all pro's and con's before making up their minds. That's the process Hillary goes through now. : : When looking at the Oldham/DSMIV classification, the Conscientious/Obsessive style (same as Naranjo N1 character style) makes the best match with Hillary and Al's character: : : - 'works very hard, and is capable of intense single-minded effort'(to the neglect of relationships) : : - left brainers (causes their un-warm image) : : - The right thing - strong (moral) values and opinions; un-compromising : : - Need to be right and to do things right (i.e. without any flaws); which of course needs a lot of time for pondering and causes 'agony' to the person : : - PERSEVERANCE (headstrong/obstinate/'through thick and thin') - they stick to their convictions and opinions (devotion) : : Jan : :

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