Posted by Cory on September 25, 1999 at 19:36:36:
In Reply to: Re: Our 4w3 brethren posted by johnmerrick on September 25, 1999 at 19:14:31:
[John]: let me ask this in response to the title of your post: are you implying that the 4/3 is the distant cousin the "other four", as if the 4/5 is the "real four"? (i realize you use the term "brethren", but i still get the feeling that the four/three is thought of as the faux four) please forgive me if i read into it too much, but that's the way it seems.
[Cory] - Yes, most of the "fours" I hear about and when somebody is described as "fourish" are usually 4w5's. And, when somebody is described as a 4w3, its usually an effeminate homosexual stereotype, i.e., jackson, prince, tennessee williams. Of course, that is just plain wrong...just like all 4w5's aren't bohemians! I hate how Riso describes the 4w5 like that, because even though i THINK different than mainstream society, I am not some visible rebel (which I associate with bohemian). I live a reasonably normal life, dress very minimalistic (my intense 5 wing) but that doesn't fit my definition of bohemian. One other thing I must point out is that even though in all types there is difference between people, there is the greatest difference in fours. For a while I thought I wasn't a four when I started talking to people who were fours, because they were unlike me! We all have different wings, are self pres/social/sexual, are on different levels, and have different parts of the enneagram in us (I have more 6 than you, you have more 1 than me, etc). When you add these factors up in a totality, you get highly individual people, so in a way, there can't be no "typical four".
[John]: as far as the DEFINITE difference between the two types...michael jackson and prince...there are real similarities. bob dylan and leonard cohen...more real similarities. michael jackson and bob dylan? hard to believe they are the same core type almost. but the wing (and of course health level) makes a MARKED difference.
[Cory] Yes but FDR and Stalin are both 8's! When you take in account all the factors that makes up personality, their base enneagram number makes them only somewhat in common. Jackson and Dylan are both searching for their identities...its just they both have completely different identities. And if any of you are familiar with existentialism, Albert Camus is a 4w3 and Soren Kierkegaard is a 4w5. Their outlook on life is both dark, but optimistic...and they are a good example of how 4w3's and 4w5's can be similar in my book.
[John]: i have a very close friend who is a four/five. we identify with one another very, very much....but as for pursuing goals...he has much less drive and confidence. as for innovation and striking originality in creative works...he is superior.
: he has the loner, unsocial quality...i am able to "work a crowd"...etc, etc, etc.....
[Cory] - Don't forget the 4w5's are more deep! ;) Its true that 4w5's tend to have more depth, are maybe more artistic...but the price we have to pay is we can't ever finish our work, unlike the lucky 4w3's! I admire the positive qualities of the 3 that are manifest in 4's...drive and confidence are both traits I greatly want (and need!) As well, I think 4w5's are focus more on the darker side of life, and are probably more prone to depression than 4w3's (but not by much!). It has also struck me that generally 4w3's are "nicer", and more in touch with their feelings, while a 4w5 is influenced by its wing's "coldness" and tendency to use their reason more (like me!). Hmm...I need to stop adding parantheses, a comment, and an exclamation mark at the end of each sentence (you know?)
Cory