Re: Is there a place for us?

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: Hi Cory. : I recognize your point of view, but have always wondered about the agnostic point of view...and whether or not its simply a cop-out, or the work of a primarily rational way of thinking. : And even though I only show up to my Philosophy class once out of two sessions a week, I did read a piece of work by William James, and I'm interested to know what you, Cory (and others) think of it. : (By the way, this is my 5 wing talking...and I know Cory at one point thought he was a 5....anyway, here goes: : James wrote a piece of work called "The Will To Beleive," a kind of rebuttal to Blaise Pascal's "Wager." Pascal argued that you HAD to either choose beleif in God, or nonbeleif. And that since you stand to gain infinite reward if you beleive in God, and risk eternall punishment if you do not, the best "bet" is to beleive in God. : I know that probably turns you off, Cory....especially because you seem to feel safe in your stance that you can avoid committing one way or the other on the subject. : The counter-argument is that human beings can not simply WILL themselves to beleive anything that their mind says is logically appropriate. What James ended up arguing is that: : "Our passional nature not only lawfully may, but must, decide an option between propositions, whenever it is a genuine option that cannot by its nature be decided on intellectual grounds" : loosely translated, he claims that if we are presented a choice, and our rational can not decide either way, then our "passional nature" is bound to decide for us... He goes on to say: : "To say...'do not decide, but leave the question open,' is itself a passional decision--just like deciding yes or no-and is attended with the same risk of losing truth." : If you're familiar with the rock band "Rush," you may remember them singing "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice," which sums up the words quite nicely. : : There is definitely a lot of 5 in you, Cory, because it seems that fives tend to only trust in what they can rationally figure out. I'm guessing that you don't buy into what James (and Rush) is saying about "choosing not to decide."....mostly because your "fiveness" does not want to allow you to make a decision based on faith alone. I don't know what the other factors that are leading you to thinking you may be a nine, but I think you agnostic stance on the existence of God indicates that you may be a five. That's just my opinion, though. : : Always, : Matches : : Yes, I heard about the train crash... : : I'm surprised that it didn't get more media here, since they say 120+ people are still unknown to be dead or alive??? Its how shallow the American culture is...if 10 people died in an American train wreck, it would be all over coast to coast. But since it happened to foreigners, our media doesn't care. : : As for God, I am agnostic. I consider it the most rational view, since I am skeptical of both theism and atheism. Christianity and other religions don't appeal to me...however, I'm not about to revert to being an atheist! For me, it would be completely stupid to think one knew enough about the universe to say there is no God. Likewise, I'm not going to believe something just because other people say its true. So for me, I have no reason to believe in God or not believe in God....I just...don't know. : : I guess that either shows I am a 5 or a 9. Fives are independent, rational thinkers, and Nines usually occupy a middle ground. : : -Cory

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