Re: Good thoughts! thank you

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: : : : : : : I'd really like to hear people's experiences on this: : : : : What is the cause of the Four "absent, idealized lover" fixation? : : : Hi Konrad~~ : : : I can only speak for myself on this one. All my life I idealized everyone, from friends to lovers. I know now that it was due to my idealization of my father, who was emotionally absent when I was young (very Freudian, which I hate, but true). : : : I also think that it's much easier to "fall in love" with an ideal than with the true individual. The reason? It distances us from our fear of rejection. After all, our ideal would never reject us, would they? As you (well, all 4s) know, this is just setting ourselves up for a fall, and invariably it happens. Ideals are ideals, not people. Oh---and idealization gives us a sense of control as well. After I idealized the person, I learned cues as to when the ideal started to fall apart, and would then break off the relationship before it had the chance to destroy itself completely (and before the other person could break it off first. That way I always knew when it would end. This also was a way to stave off the impending rejection). (Excuse my long run-on sentences). : : : : I've had it since I was in second grade; this included devastating, : : : : unrequited infatuations, that lasted way too long, being constantly : : : : on the lookout for a beautiful woman to fulfill my fantasies, brief, : : : : unstable, doomed relationships, the seemingly uncontrollable : : : : disenchantment with any woman who made herself permanently : : : : available, no matter how amazing she seemed when unattained, : : : : the whole nine yards laid out so plainly in the Enneagram books. : : : It's safer to feel at a distance. Idealization keeps the real person away. : : : : : : : I've come a ways in self-development in the last couple of years : : : : so that I at least feel more confident in meeting women, in fact : : : : at the moment (and this is liable to change if I should slip : : : : into feeling hopeless again) I'm reasonably relaxed about the : : : : continued existence of my love/sex life. Sometime soon I would : : : : like to have a shot at a long-term relationship. But I'd like : : : : to get to a place where I recognize when there's a real chance, and : : : : that I don't fuck it up like I have in the past. How, for : : : : example, do you tell the difference between the self-sabotaging : : : : compulsion to find fault with the person, the relationship, and : : : : recognizing real problems and/or a need to move on? : : : How do you : : : : know when you're spinning a fantasy of a lifetime love, and when : : : : you've found a person you should do your utmost to stick it out : : : : with? : : : Good question. Lemme think....the way I learned how to tell was when I noticed myself constantly thinking about the other person, all the wonderful fantasies about a life together, etc., while "watching" the other person continue to live their life *while* dating me. After all, I would become obsessed with this ideal. Have you ever "watched" the other person and feel/say to yourself, "they're not paying enough attention to me" or perceiving that you're feeling more for her than she is for you? : : : What else I would do: I would feel like I was always "chasing" after them, even while I was *in* the relationship. When I visualized him in my mind, I was always "looking UP" at him. This is a sure sign of idealizing the other. Do you feel yourself trying to impress her all the time, long after you've already been together for awhile (after the stage where both are trying to impress the other)? These are only SOME---I mean REALLY just the tip of the iceburg---things I would do. If I think of anything more that might be helpful, I'll repost. : : : : : : What I've experienced when I've come closest to having a : : : : lasting relationship is like an explosion of chaotic impulses : : : : and indecisiveness, which results in sabotage. : : : someone once told me that when the above happens, you, for some reason, are not ready for a committed relationship (please don't take this as a value judgement or hell, a judgement at all. I found truth in it for myself so I'm passing it on). : : : HOWEVER..... the thing that walks hand in hand w/ idealization is projection. When you begin to become critical w/ the other, are you sure these are not criticisms that you feel within/about yourself but are projecting onto the other instead of meeting them head on? Also, self-sabotaging is a sign of self-hate (I really hope you're not taking this the wrong way). There is something inside that's hurting you deeply & showing itself most intensely in the "chaotic impulse" stage. I know that for myself I learn most about myself through my relationships. I learned to look at each one as a growing experience, even if I felt I'd failed at (the relationship) the same time. When I started seeing it that way, I realized that each one was trying to tell me something. After all, it's the same pattern. Fact is, YOU are the common denominator. Time for more self-examination! That's what I did, and finally I was able to crack the code, break the pattern--for the most part. I'm in a healthy relationship now for the first time, not self-sabotaging (although I'm CONSTANTLY worried that I AM doing that, but my better half keeps telling me otherwise---so I have a significant amount of insecurity due to my past patterns). Problem? She's a 9!!! A 9 for godsake! Who the hell knows how badly I'm messing up!?!?!?! I'd never know cause she'd never say anything! But that's a whole other issue... : : : : How have people here dealt with and worked through these problems : : : : (or succumbed to them, I want to hear it all!)? : : : Look within, Konrad, that's where all the answers are. (I hope I haven't offended you, but honesty and truth are more important.) : : : I wish you well in your ongoing search, : : : Karen : Karen, : Appreciating your response in more detail: : You kept apologizing for your, I guess you could call it directness in : conveying your thoughts on the topic, but there's no need because : that incisiveness was really valuable. Some of it did cut pretty : close to the bone and shake me up a bit, but that's not a bad thing, : though it's made me a touch depressed all of a sudden. : I felt a real self-recognition in the details of your experiences. : It seems you've taken yourself through some solid growth through : these issues, and that gives me hope for my own continued growth, : mixed with some renewed fear of the reality of the problems I've been : dealing with. I guess there are some scary things to wrestle with on : the quest for wholeness. : Thanks : Konrad

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