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Enneagram Type 5 Board Archive Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions...Posted by Eye of the Night on March 22, 2001 at 18:52:35: In Reply to: your so incredibly deluded.anyone who doesn't understand what is realy meant by ENVY can learn a lot from you. posted by dean on March 22, 2001 at 15:55:56:
: that crippled EGO crutch crap about being "gifted" is your ego identity and thats why you think your a five.you think fives are smarter somehow Gifted is NOT my identity...it is merely a trait like all others. So many times I've clearly expressed it, and yet you act as if you didn't even read it. Instead, you reason on the assumption that I am ego-driven, on the stereo-type you have of gifted. Assumption nr. 1. : their is no drawback to being smart.as for being smarter than your peers and that causing friction i know exactly what your talking about but to (enviously)say it's a curse is as dumb as every fools faverite excuse for his own ignorance"people with book smarts don't have any common sense".it's called classic ENVY. it,s quintessential 4-5 behaviour anyone well versed enough will tell you that.the sooner your gifted ego learn this lesson the better off you'll be.I AM ENVY. Now here's a perfect example of how your views/assumptions/beliefs color your perception. I've literally STRESSED that it's both a blessing AND a curse, yet you read only that it's a curse. That's a half truth, and it's common knowledge that presenting part of the truth as if it where the whole makes the truth into a lie. : : : in response to "Sigh" by eye of the night, in response to EOTN is a 4 w/ id crisis!! by dean... : : : : : first you can lay off all that ego driven gifted crap.i bet most people here fall in the top 98% and are "gifted"(i hate that misleading title). : : : : Now this is exactly why I only mention it when it is relevant or serves a purpose. Even though I clearly stated that it's just a trait like all the others, I immediately get this kind of shit of supposedly having a big ego. I'm always being confronted with these kinds of idiotic stereotypes. Geez, ease up, man. Gifted are also people. (btw, it is not misleading, but rather incomplete. Giftedness is both curse and blessing, while the name only mentions the blessing) : : Just because I'm part of the group of the populous (the gifted) I defend, doesn't mean I'm doing it just for myself... : : : eye of the night, *all you see is yourself*. and i wouldn't believe that you are anything but a 4 unless perhaps you're intenionally TRYING to convince me that you are a 4, and if so, yo'ure a damn fine actor. how could you say that teh description of 5 fits with you most? it's not that 5s are not typically introspective to a point, but it is not their primary concern. a 5s focus is his inner reflections, but those inner reflections take the shape of objective rational explainations of the OUTSIDE world. it's a fundamental shift in motivation between 4s and 5s, and really the best way to tell them apart. 4s are basically motivated by their impression of themselves, while 5s are motivated by fear of external threats from the universe. it's a deep down type thing, something that is generally hidden from the world and ourselves by various psychological survival techniques, but it is what those techniques are built up in response to. : : My self-image isn't all that relevant to my view of the outside world...at most it just provides a pair of glasses to color my vision, like everyone else has... : : : so, i'm saying that you are self-image rather than fear motivated. (i'm referring to the adjascent triads. 234 are self-image, 567 are fear.) by "fear" in this context, i mean concern with external threats to one's being. this is what drives 5s with such passion to understand everything they can about the outside world. it's not that they want to help the world, usually, because the chief worry is that the world might get you! the world is a big scary thing that must be understood so that you can be one step ahead of it when the monsters come. this leads them to favor their internal world of concepts and theories to the harsh realities of the physical world. 5s do not typically exhibit this fear, often not even to themselves, but it is the foundation of their psyche in many ways. the suppression of emotions, obsession with objective rational thinking, desire to explain everything, these are all the 5's means of dealing with a fear of the world. because external concern is the center of their being, they generally are more concerned with understanding the outside world than with any discussions of themselves. will hunting in "good will hunting" is a good example of a 54 gone painfully to 7, obsessively filling his brain with information to avoid genuine interaction with the outside world. when asked about himself, he changed the subject and got very irate. : : : you, on the otherhand, can't stop telling everyone how aweful it is that you are so extremely intelligent, and oh, what a burden it is to be so smart, and you just don't understand what it's like to be so gifted; in typical 4 fasion. the driving 4 motivation, parallelling the 5's external fear, is fear of losing one's esteem, of feeling like a bad or ignoble being. this is what i mean when i say "self-image." i know this might seem as if i'm saying that you are mistaken as to your inner nature, or that you are not being true to yourself, and i bet, as a 4, you would really be insulted if i said that. but really, i believe thatyou know yourself plenty fine. you just dont' understand the enneagram worth a damn. : : Rather, how gifted are normal people like everyone else, and should be treated equally. That I'm a part of that group of people is irrelevant to the argument. : : : why do i say that you are self-image motivated? well, for all your instistance that you are focused on the outside world, and concerned with the outside world, you haven't said a single thing about anything outside yourself so far. you haven't expressed a single opinion that didn't exist solely to support what you say about yourself. you haven't really talked about anything else, and there has been plenty to talk about. bartholomew posted something again, you could go argue about something completely unrelated to either of you for a while if you'd wanted. you've gotten really upset when people imply that you don't know about yourself. "i'm an expert on me!" you exclaim, in far more words. in this whole discussion, you haven't done a shred of research or supported any of your claims with evidence to the contrary of what someone says, you simply spew more 4 sayings and insist you're right without ever addressing their claims. weak arguing tactics. : : Isn't that what the discussion is about, in this case, on whether I'm 5w4 or 4w5? Then what am I doing wrong by staying on-topic, and not straying off to topics of the outside world irrelevant to the discussion about the particular topic? : : : : : stop fooling yourself about this. you're not fooling anyone else. : : I'm saying it's BOTH a blessing and a curse...which I think I've explained enough. And again, I'm talking about the group, and you translate it into being an argument about me alone, while at most I use myself as example for arguments for the group, as being part of the group. : : : : : : : Yet I've heard arguments about how enneagram types don't change, and about the first 8 years of my life I was more INTP, had a thinking preference. Later it shifted a bit more to become a feeling preference, but that would only strengthen the 4 wing...back then I fitted a lot better with the description of a 5...and even now I still feel it's the one I've got most similarity with, more than with the 4. : : Archetype still doesn't mean surety, and having a 4-wing could thus easily explain it. And the additional argument I just mentioned as such, not directly as reply, and because it appears general opinion is that 5s are more likely to be thinking. In the early years I fit the desrciption of a 5 even better...while not having read a full book or so on the subject, I've seen many descriptions on sites, where I fit with the 5 every time, and recognize myself a bit in the 4 most of the time... : : : really, eotn. i know this may seem like an attack, but i'm not trying to throw insults and have a big flame war. i'll believe that you may have scored well on an iq test, but so what? how can i beleive you are a genius when you can't hold a conversation? you dont' even make an effort to really SOUND smart, you just whine about how gifted you are. it's a pity that being gifted has so gotten in the way of your genius. i guess the world just finally hit you with that final aweful blow, really crushed your spirit. if you wanna prove that you're a 5, then really make an effort to understand what people are saying, study the enneagram some more, and make a more well-reasoned case. i've been wrong before, and i'll be able to see that if you show me, or you'll see my point of view. an argument is a search for the truth. and don't be afraid to have been wrong, cause that's what the argument was for. i don't think anyone here would lose respect for someone who admits they're wrong and refines their theory. 4, 5, intp, infp, gifted or not, you're a fool if you can't deal with being wrong in the face of a mountain of evidence. : : I know...unlike the post I replied to, which WAS an attack, not to me but to the gifted, for whom I've defended, which may therefore easily be misinterpreted as envy rather than a sort of half-anger about the injustice being done against gifted, I know you don't mean this as an attack. Anyway, I wouldn't call it a mountain of evidence...rather a mountain of impressions, each of which colored by incomplete knowledge (about me), assumptions made early on, and personal opinions. I admit I don't feel like being driven by fear, but I also don't feel like being driven by self-image. All I want is for the world to become a better place, for there to be balance, for everyone to understand enough about themselves, others and the world around them so that we may live in peace, balanced, and making progress. : : : every type is gifted in some ways, and cursed in others. it's not just you, and you're not a 5. moreover, the more we try to convince ourselves that we are something we're not, the more we suppress our truest and most gifted self. you're killing your genius if you do that, trying instead to be something you're not. only when you put aside your misconceptions will you be able to do this, and only then will you be able to complain about being gifted. : : I'm not trying to be anything. I try to be myself, and then out of curiosity take a look at the types to see where I fit in. When other people disagree, an honest, "objective" discussion arises...of course, "objective" because nothing is truly objective, and each views everything through the glasses of his/her perception and system of beliefs/assumptions, which is something to take into account when having a discussion...especially when those glasses are in the way of truth. So a way must be found past all these glasses, through interpretation and logical deduction, which is exactly what I'm trying to do, even though I'm not all too experienced at it yet... : : :
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