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Posted by Tchenier on June 27, 2001 at 21:05:54:

In Reply to: soft vs hard atheism... posted by isaac on June 27, 2001 at 10:44:26:

Great posts, Thanks.

I have long held the view that faith and logic are entirely separable phenomenon. Logic being defined for the world of objects and faith reaching out to the transcendent through "adumbrations of the Other", a quote form F.M. Wolff. In theory these adumbrations, if followed lead to religious experience. But one who has a true religous experience is no longer a believer in God anymore than I am a believer in my own existence -- my knowledge of my own existence is simply a ground truth. A logical justification of faith is simply not possible since the problem, in mathematical terms is ill conditioned. The symbols that the conscious mind has available to it can never define something which is supposedly infinite. Others said the same thing in different ways. Ya I think the majority of 5s would never attempt a logical justification of faith, thier insticts just send them away from such an enterprise. They just dont go there as Rhonda said. But a related question is how many 5s have adopted faith. For a 5 in particular the adoption of faith can be a sign of maturity, because it shows a that the 5 have moved beyond the confines of intellect into feeling and unqualified intuition. But maybe not. I agree that there is hard and soft athieism but there is a third position as well. Hard atheism is a subject for puzzle-heads. It is so interesting to see hard atheists parade themselves as more intellegent than thou. But hard atheism requires proof of a void and is logically untenable. Soft atheism hits considerably closer to the mark. Its true that you can't prove the god/no god position. And it does not matter whether there is a god or not or whether it is believed in or not or whether you think the question is completely for the birds, as I do, sort of. What does matter is your attitude towards your own experience of living. What is not in your experience is just mystery and is best acknowledged as such, unqualified. And how to best expand your knowledge into a mystery??? Read more books?? Do more deep thinkin?? Partly, maybe, I will let you know when I get enlightened.

Tchenier 5w4

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: Great posts, Thanks. : I have long held the view that faith and logic are entirely separable phenomenon. Logic being defined for the world of objects and faith reaching out to the transcendent through "adumbrations of the Other", a quote form F.M. Wolff. In theory these adumbrations, if followed lead to religious experience. But one who has a true religous experience is no longer a believer in God anymore than I am a believer in my own existence -- my knowledge of my own existence is simply a ground truth. A logical justification of faith is simply not possible since the problem, in mathematical terms is ill conditioned. The symbols that the conscious mind has available to it can never define something which is supposedly infinite. Others said the same thing in different ways. Ya I think the majority of 5s would never attempt a logical justification of faith, thier insticts just send them away from such an enterprise. They just dont go there as Rhonda said. But a related question is how many 5s have adopted faith. For a 5 in particular the adoption of faith can be a sign of maturity, because it shows a that the 5 have moved beyond the confines of intellect into feeling and unqualified intuition. But maybe not. I agree that there is hard and soft athieism but there is a third position as well. Hard atheism is a subject for puzzle-heads. It is so interesting to see hard atheists parade themselves as more intellegent than thou. But hard atheism requires proof of a void and is logically untenable. Soft atheism hits considerably closer to the mark. Its true that you can't prove the god/no god position. And it does not matter whether there is a god or not or whether it is believed in or not or whether you think the question is completely for the birds, as I do, sort of. What does matter is your attitude towards your own experience of living. What is not in your experience is just mystery and is best acknowledged as such, unqualified. And how to best expand your knowledge into a mystery??? Read more books?? Do more deep thinkin?? Partly, maybe, I will let you know when I get enlightened. : Tchenier 5w4

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