Re: yet another 4::5 reflection...

Posted by Paul the Pharmacist on July 13, 2001 at 14:57:36:

In Reply to: yet another 4::5 reflection... posted by isaac on July 13, 2001 at 11:41:35:

: i've been thinking a lot about that vertical divide in the enneagram. it's something of a looking glass for secondary types. (doesn't apply to central types; but they just defy all logic. :) the types opposite one another, 8-1, 7-2, 5-4, are all reflections in some way. they have some very similar issues, but deal with them in diametrically different ways. lots of parallels that just fit nicely, astoundingly similar to many of the greatest models in physics.

: anyway, i was thinknig about the 4 yoyo-relationship issue, and wondering what the 5 correllary to that is. we don't do anything of the sort with relationships. we kinda have a yoyo without a string. when we drop the thing, and it might bounce back up, or it might just roll away. and when we're holding on to it, it's usually just easier to stay with a person. and there's no qualms whatsoever about letting a person slip away (or casting them out!) if we're not happy with them.

: then i thought, if this is really an issue that is mirrored in 5s somehow, it's obviously not that 5s do the same thing. 1) we don't. 2) that's not how the mirroring works. so i thought about WHY 4s play the yoyo games with relationships. then it hit me. it's an addiction to a certain emotional experience. when the person first enters, infatuation. then, they're there, and "stuck" sets in. the person does not live up to expectations, so there's some resentment. so you kick em out (either directly or by just being crazy all over them.) then they're gone, so you long for them, possibly feel rejected even.

: usually a 4 issue with emotions are mirrored by a 5 issue with intellect. i think that it is paralleled by the 5ish tendency to get obsessively into any entertaining intellectual endeavor which stimulates the mind. chess, dnd, magic the gathering, reading, whatever. when i'm feeling low energy, i can go online and play chess for hours, just to kind of ignore teh world for a while. and, i'ts great because i'm GOOD at chess, so it's easy to get that feeling of competence to snuff out any feelings of incompetence in other areas of my life. however, at the same time, in the back of my mind while i'm doing this, i KNOW what i'm putting off, and i hate myself for my weakness. so i drown that feeling in the thrill of intellectual VICTORY and POWER. it's a way to almost subversively feel powerful without having to actually connect with teh world and get real power.

: on the other side fo the looking glass, 4s get their feelings of worthiness and being loved from the yoyo. if the person keeps coming back, they must still love me. 5 power issues, i've found, are often mirrored by 4 society issues. in parallel to the 5 intellectual game obsession, this emotional game helps them subversively get the feeling of acceptance and connection to the Other, without having to actually do the work of connecting to their own sense of self-worth and righteousness. they get teh thrill of infatuation and the pain of longing wrapped up in one big swirly mess of complacency. and THATS where the real reflection lies. both types basically do this thing in order to stay still when there's more important work to be done. the 5 playing chess is avoiding connecting to the real world in a meaningful way in order to act effectively. the 4 playing yoyo is avoiding connecting to his own sense of self-worth in order to truly feel accepted and confident.

At least you do sa sane thing like chess Isaac. I am fascinatedby psychosomatics particularly the possible relationship between mind and cancer. Ill read a breast cancer book like "First you Cry" by Betty Rollins and try to determine her Enneagram type from her autobiography. Its hard work but she seems like a 4w3 or 3w4.
Once I was on a plane I was reading anbother breast cancer book called t The Red Devil. There was this very pretty woman from Italy who was flabbergasted and fascinated seeing a man reading a book like that underlining with a red pen and making footnotes as if I were reading a textbook in quantum physics. She came over to me but backed off when she saw my wedding ring.
By the way Im still struggling with 5W4 or 4W5. Im not emotional enough to be a four but too emotional to be a five. I can drop people without the push pull like a five would but if someone important drops me I cant let go emotionally like a four. I lost three grandkids from divorce 4 years ago (actually stepgrandkikds) and still think o fthem. Is it possible to be 50:50. Remember I came out INFP which is very closely linked t 4w5.

: another thing that i think reinforces interpreting these two characteristics as a reflection phenomenon is that they both occur at about the same level fo health. i do not follow the riso camp with 9 nice neat little levels. there's a lot of grey area there, and it's more than just a 2 dimensional continuum. a healthy person having a really bad day may seem to be at the same risoan-hudsonian level as a really unhealthy person having a great day, but there are going to be some real big differences. but, nonetheless, 5s and 4s do these things i talked about when they're not as healthy as they could be, but not actually disintegrating. somewhere in the unhealthy-moderate range, particularly under stress. when there's conflict in my life, my initial reaction is not to act, it's to run away and think about something else. for a 4, generally the conflict is something social in nature. a relationship with a 4 that is going bad will often dissolve into a push-pull cycle, becasue it's easier for the 4 to just indulge in easy emotional stimulation than to assert their own need for love and self-worth.

: what do you all think of this? any other ideas? anything else that you think might be an interesting reflection in 4s and 5s? or 8s and 1s and 7s and 2s, also. it's just that most people here are either 4s or 5s, it seems, so those two types get teh most discussion. and why not? we're teh best! hahahah

: isaac

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