Posted by Ryan on July 26, 2001 at 19:38:34:
In Reply to: Lots of stupid shit has ended up in popular books... posted by RoTtEn ApPlE on July 26, 2001 at 18:08:08:
The 5s fear is of being "helpless and incapable." It's an issue with competence and acquiring knowledge. 5s don't like looking like idiots. Ironically, you're in the most danger of all talking to other 5s on this board because we're the people most likely to make you look like an idiot. The 5s acquisition of knowledge like most hobbies has a light side and a dark side. The light side is the joy of acquiring new knowledge that healthy 5s experience, the dark side is the hoarding of knowledge in order to attempt some sort of survival in the real world that unhealthy 5s experience.
I do agree with you that 5s aren't likely to experience the paranoia that enneagram sources seem to suggest. An unhealthy 5 is more likely to experience repulsion towards the world and a sense of intellectual superiority. All one has to do is read Nietsche to see the beginnings of this kind of thinking.
In my mind there are three dimensions to a 5s personality, represented by the main type and its two wings. The first is "thinking," which to other types is just "under-doing" but is in fact essential to the 5 personality and its survival. The second center is "doing," based at enneagram point 6, the third center is "inward feeling," being able to process not just the thoughts but the feelings of others, centered at type 4. When a 5 merely thinks without feeling or action, he becomes a "head in a jar" and is completely isolated and alone.
You are somewhat correct about prediction. If a 5 cares enough about what other people's thoughts, feelings and actions will be, then that 5 is beginning to place himself in the true world and not the world of his own mind. However, the conclusions drawn by prediction may not always be healthy. A 5w6 is more likely to draw the conclusion that the world is out to get him and that he's in danger... his thoughts become overcentered on self-survival and everything the 5 reads or observes becomes a perceived threat. He lacks the ability to perform tasks which bring about thoughts of internal security. A 5w4 is more likely to draw the conclusion that the world is purposefully rejecting him and is not open to his ideas... he lacks the abilty to process the feelings of others and thus feels isolated. These conclusions originate from lack of integration of the wing with the main type. The 5w6 does not understand their own need for security and how their thoughts can become victimized by that need, and the 5w4 does not understand the need to understand their "self" and have others connect with it in order for their thoughts to truly have any meaning in the world. The unhealthy 5w6 needs to use their doing center to perform tasks which bring about a sense of security. The unhealthy 5w4 needs to use the feeling center more in order to begin to feel who they are and that others might have the capability of understanding them and their thoughts. This will bring the two subtypes to average levels.
And logically, to bring the subtypes to healthy levels, the 5w6 needs to truly connect with others in a spiritually fulfilling way and not just use others for security, while the 5w4 needs to actually go out and DO something and not just contemplate their navel and the navels of others around them. Thus we have total integration of the three centers of the 5. 5s will always primarily be thinkers and their world revolves around this... but they must live their lives in the three dimensions of the main type and wings and not the one dimension of their type alone. This is why wing theory is so important... it's about understanding the secondary motivations that drive you beyond that primary one that almost all 5s can already instinctively understand. We fear lack of competence and understanding... but we can always use our brains to bounce back from any setbacks. What can really hurt us though is becoming too localized in the internal world of thoughts. This is what we all really need to fear.
Ryan
: ...popularity proves nothing.
: This is a point that I'm kind of tired of defending. Truthfully, I'm much more about exploring and understanding... not so interested in explaining and convincing others.
: : Have you even defined fear?
: : It seems to me to be a remarkably subjective word. Any deed undertaken to prevent undesirable consequences can be said to be motivated by fear of those consequences. Basically, any logical, sensible thing you do, like taking a shower before a job interview, booking a hotel before you depart, reading the manual before assembling the machine.
: : Where do you draw the line at calling it fear?
: Ofcourse it's a lousy word... that's why I despise it's use... it's misleading. I do find it interesting that you see doing anything logical or sensible as being potentially fear motivated. That assumes that it's against our positive drives to act in such a way. It can also be viewed as DESIRE for certain positive consequences... or optimum consequences.
: : Fact is, fives often act logically, using foresight to predict negative outcomes and taking steps to prevent these outcomes. Every five I have ever met does this a lot. Not to say they never get caught unawares, but it tends to happen less because they naturally use forethought. Which is not fundamentally different from fear.
: Are you saying that the 5's drive to predict is avoidant? I think you are confusing 5s and 6s. 5s do not fear punishment... 5s are not paranoid or self-defeating... they are schizoid. The fundamental nature of the 5 is the view that world is cold, indifferent, unloving... like stone... (not punishing or threatening as it is to a 6 or a 1). 5s are survivalists... like we have dropped on an unwelcoming planet and must learn how to find food and build shelter and take care of our own needs... hence we are also minimalists. We predict in order to understand the world we must survive (and hopefully flourish) in.
: We see the 5ish attitude exemplified in the schizoid personality, a direct reflection of the cold, stone-like environment mirrored in the forgotten individual. Prediction is a step towards action... it is not fear motivated but shows a desire to succeed and survive.
: : Other types tend not to think ahead unless they are forced to.
: :
: : : 5s are no more fear motivated than any other type. Triads and their terms are often misleading.