Posted by RoTtEn ApPlE on July 26, 2001 at 22:59:50:
In Reply to: More stupid shit to improve your lives posted by Ryan on July 26, 2001 at 19:38:34:
: The 5s fear is of being "helpless and incapable." It's an issue with competence and acquiring knowledge. 5s don't like looking like idiots. Ironically, you're in the most danger of all talking to other 5s on this board because we're the people most likely to make you look like an idiot. The 5s acquisition of knowledge like most hobbies has a light side and a dark side. The light side is the joy of acquiring new knowledge that healthy 5s experience, the dark side is the hoarding of knowledge in order to attempt some sort of survival in the real world that unhealthy 5s experience.
>>>I don't care about looking like an idiot or being proved wrong nearly as much as I care about possessing truth and finding the answer that works. Hence my lazy attitude toward arguing points I KNOW with idiots on these boards. The 5 fear (and let me emphasize that EVERY type has a 'fear') is of being helpless/incapable but at a deeper level it is the fear of not existing (which is not exactly the same as a fear of death). So, if I fear anything, I fear my own subjectivity or that I will lie to myself (because hey, I have a 4wing).
>>>I really do like to view the 9types through the correlating personality disorders and developmental psychology. I think it presents the clearest picture. The 5 is the baby that does not scream... it resolves the conflict that it's cries are not heard by not needing... at core, a simple illustration... this is the schizoid... this is the 5. No love, no safety, no bond... but no death.
: I do agree with you that 5s aren't likely to experience the paranoia that enneagram sources seem to suggest. An unhealthy 5 is more likely to experience repulsion towards the world and a sense of intellectual superiority. All one has to do is read Nietsche to see the beginnings of this kind of thinking.
: In my mind there are three dimensions to a 5s personality, represented by the main type and its two wings. The first is "thinking," which to other types is just "under-doing" but is in fact essential to the 5 personality and its survival. The second center is "doing," based at enneagram point 6, the third center is "inward feeling," being able to process not just the thoughts but the feelings of others, centered at type 4. When a 5 merely thinks without feeling or action, he becomes a "head in a jar" and is completely isolated and alone.
>>>Hmmmmm... I really do believe that leaning on a wing is a very, very bad thing. I also don't think isolation is a 'problem' for a 5 except that is often the result or a least the partner of things that are unhealthy (such as dwelling on feeling for the 5w4). The trap of the 5 is not to deny feelings but to deny the physical body and to retreat into the mind... this is resolved by integration to 8 and ACTION.
: You are somewhat correct about prediction. If a 5 cares enough about what other people's thoughts, feelings and actions will be, then that 5 is beginning to place himself in the true world and not the world of his own mind. However, the conclusions drawn by prediction may not always be healthy. A 5w6 is more likely to draw the conclusion that the world is out to get him and that he's in danger... his thoughts become overcentered on self-survival and everything the 5 reads or observes becomes a perceived threat. He lacks the ability to perform tasks which bring about thoughts of internal security. A 5w4 is more likely to draw the conclusion that the world is purposefully rejecting him and is not open to his ideas... he lacks the abilty to process the feelings of others and thus feels isolated. These conclusions originate from lack of integration of the wing with the main type. The 5w6 does not understand their own need for security and how their thoughts can become victimized by that need, and the 5w4 does not understand the need to understand their "self" and have others connect with it in order for their thoughts to truly have any meaning in the world. The unhealthy 5w6 needs to use their doing center to perform tasks which bring about a sense of security. The unhealthy 5w4 needs to use the feeling center more in order to begin to feel who they are and that others might have the capability of understanding them and their thoughts. This will bring the two subtypes to average levels.
>>>5w6 aside... I think you are weird and wrong about 5w4s. 5w4s DO NOT need meaning or to develop their feeling center. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD Sirens go off in my head... that is what we THINK we need to do... it's damn tempting... but it's a TRAP. What we need is to understand that we are cool without mucking about with feelings or searching for meaning.
: And logically, to bring the subtypes to healthy levels, the 5w6 needs to truly connect with others in a spiritually fulfilling way and not just use others for security, while the 5w4 needs to actually go out and DO something and not just contemplate their navel and the navels of others around them. Thus we have total integration of the three centers of the 5. 5s will always primarily be thinkers and their world revolves around this... but they must live their lives in the three dimensions of the main type and wings and not the one dimension of their type alone. This is why wing theory is so important... it's about understanding the secondary motivations that drive you beyond that primary one that almost all 5s can already instinctively understand. We fear lack of competence and understanding... but we can always use our brains to bounce back from any setbacks. What can really hurt us though is becoming too localized in the internal world of thoughts. This is what we all really need to fear.
>>>Ummm, Ryan... know you are going to disagree with this one but the key to health for a 5 is really to use one's libido to drive action. That sums it up quite neatly. Sorry, I'm really bored of discussing this.