Picky critique 'Elizabeth' style (apologies)

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: : that i should just bone up and stop being lazy. : : ahh, well... : : ryan, i'd believe that you're a 54. actually, not much else would fit. i know a 54 who you remind me of a lot. of course, it's comparing things that you write and i read with teh actual real-life behavior of a person, so you guys might not really be that similar besides both being 54s, but you get what i'm sayin. : >>>Heh, Ryan, I believe you if you say you're a 5w4 too. I saw enough of a pattern to raise my intuitive skepticism and ASK... had I really been seriously convinced I would have covertly gone after more evidence and just drawn my own conclusion instead. Plus, it was kinda fun to tease a little since you accused me of being a 7. ;) : : anyway, yeah, thanks for the good advice, everyone. i wrote up somethin last night when i got frustrated by what i found online. i gotta beef it up and polish it a bit, but it's a good start. if you read it, couldja lemme know if you think something really big and important is missing or something in it seems really glaringly off? : >>>Well, I'll offer some comments… some of which you will no doubt see as unnecessary divergence but I hope somewhat helpful. : : i mentioned the enneagram over the phone to someone, who (being another 54) started interrogating me. i said, "i'll email you some stuff, and a description of your type." the first part was a bit on the centers, so i could refer to them in the type description. i think the 3-center account of the egram is really the easiest to teach and use. anyhoo... : : 3 center explaination: : : ************************************************ : : traditionally, a description of the enneagram begins with a description of the 3 centers of intelligence, since that is the basis of the system. they are the doing, intellectual, and emotional centers. each center has a certain "job" that it is designed to do, and a certain style of thinking associated with it. teh job of hte doing center si done best BY the doing center. in a truly healthy person, each center is doing its job, and they just rock. in most people, this isn't always teh case. we prefer one of our centers over the other two, and have it work double time to do the job of our second center, while forgetting entirely about the job of the other center. this mixing of roles is called "scrambling." : : the doing (gut) center: teh job of the doing center is to take action and manage one's tribe. the chief issues it involves are anger and decisive motivated action. the thinking style associated with this center is instinctive. (some authors refer to it as the "instinctive/active" center, but i htink that's too wordy, and besides, this way they spell "DIE", which is cool, or "IDE" which is even cooler cause it's a computer acronym. yup, i'm a nerd :) types that identify with this center typically define themselves and others by what they DO. for them, the need to make sure that their tribe is being well-managed and safe is of chief importance. depending on the centers they scramble, these issues can take on very different characteristics. 8, 9, and 1 identify with the doing center. : >>>I made some comments to you via email before about 8, 9, and 1. I have a little trouble with the inaccuracy of such a simplification. I don't really think, from an evolutionary perspective, the purpose of instinct is to manage the tribe so much as just to make fast survival decisions (on any level... individual or family or tribe)… but I understand what you are saying… it’s a new concept to me and feels a little shaky. Time vs. accuracy seems to be a very important element in regulating which center is best in a given situation. The 'group' or the ‘tribe’ as you see it, for each of these types developmentally has a different meaning... a different level of intimacy is perhaps a good way to think of it. : : the intellectual (head) center: this center's job is quiet-mind and rational thought. the issue that it resolves is anxiety, fear of real or imagined threats to one's person. the thinking style associated with it is rational, orderly; observing the external world; planning for the future, analyzing teh past. types that identify with this center have issues with anxiety and often have trouble living in the moment. when used properly, it allows for the ability to calmly and rationally deal with the world, to truly have a sense of What's Really Going On. when not used properly, it leads to monkey-mind, jumping from thought to thought without any real direction. 5, 6, and 7 identify with this center. : >>>I have never understood why thinking is associated with fear and threat... vigilance. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. It does seem to have to do with order, structure, and conservation (minimizing loss or waste or margin of error... maximizing gain). It does require the luxury of time and without adequate processing time will function poorly. Fear seems merely consequential perhaps to a chronic shortage of TIME. : : the emotional (heart) center: this center's job is to provide a sense of being accepted in the greater community, of self-worth. the issues associated with it are self-esteem and connection. use of this center involves being in touch with empathy, feelings, that kinda crap. when used improperly, it leads to feeling disconnected, worthless, out of touch with people; people who use this center properly can be amazingly intuitive, empathic, sensitive. 2, 3, and 4 identify with this center. : >>>Not sure I would attribute 'self-worth' to this center. You make it sound like emotions are really about identity and social role and yeah, maybe they are more connected to emotion than the other centers buuuuuuuuut again I sense an inaccuracy that seems to betray your own 4ish viewpoint. Humans use a general emotional intelligence to deal with an amazing variety of things... just look at the way hunter/gatherer societies have a 'relationship' to nature and the earth. Alright, this center is the greatest mystery to me but my intuition tells me the mark here is a bit off. : : for shorthand, Xy z means that a type identifies with X, scrambles it with Y, and neglects Z; the capital is the identification, the first two are teh scrambled, and teh third is teh neglected. the central types, 3 6 9, identify with the type that they neglect. for example, 2 identifies with emotion, scrambles it with doing, and neglects intellect; Ed i. 3 identifies with emotion, but neglects it, and scrambles the otehr two to do the job of the emotional center; di E. : : ***************************** : : description of a 5: : : ******************************* : : 5s identify with their intellectual center, scramble it with their emotional center, and neglect their doing center. they typically live in their heads, ignoring the physical realities of life. they often have trouble taking decisive action when it's required, instead lost in thought of other things; often find themselves looking back at a situation and going, "damn, now i know EXACTLY what i should have said!" the preferred center is the intellect, and the issues of the intellect are of chief importance to them. they have a brain, and they know how to use it. since the world is essentially heartless and will kill anything that can't survive, it is very important for 5s to acquire as much information as possible about the outside environment so that they can forecast problems and avoid threats to their well-being. they quest for omniscience, hoarding facts and analyzing them, looking for connections. : >>>I think I've said before that I don't like this focus of AVOIDANCE and fear... fucking bugs me. Has just as much to with greed and moving forward... maximizing. The world won't 'kill' anything that won't survive. It will allow it to die. No 'mother' will intervene... there is no savior for the 5. : : competence is a very important issue for 5s. the way to survive is to be very good at knowing what's coming, and the way to do that is to be an expert. they hone their expertise on anything that catches their interest, but often have lots of side-interests as well. (for example, me and the enneagram.) they are often drawn to areas where analysis is more crucial than retention; literature, physics, philosophy; areas where it is important to be able to critically evaluate information and find connections. they tend to be very skilled at this sort of task. 5s respect competence in others, as well. they get their sense of self-worth from their intellectual prowess; scrambling of the int adn emot centers. : >>>OK. : : 5s are certainly introverts. the inner landscape of a 5 is just amazing, teaming with theories cooking on all four burners. they love to play in their heads, and often the insights they come up with are truly amazing. however, it is the OUTER world which they are primarily interested in observing, not the goings-on of their own heads. always easier to think about something outside themselves than to give up anything personal. show too much, come down from the ivory tower, and you're open to danger. (ie, my last message to you.) the withdrawn stance is a position of power and safety. if nothing can touch you, nothing can hurt you. the farther back you are from things, the more you see, so the more you know. : >>>OK. (but I do take small issue with the notion of 'withdrawn'... really it is a matter of not entering rather than retreating.) : : problems withteh doing center: : : it is easy for 5s to pull back from teh world to the extent that they are completely cut off from it. they lose touch with their tribe, have trouble changing their present station, asserting their will in hte real world. their attachment to mental realms makes it easier to ignore physical annoyances than to deal with them. : >>>Yeah, right concept only backwards. Not pulling back from the world... more hesitating to enter it. Every new experience for a 5 echoes the process of birth which hey, wasn't such a pleasant experience for the 5... they found the world to be cold and unwelcoming. 5s are not interesting in being born again. ;) : : to get healthy, 5s need to stop scrambling their int and emot; continue to use their int center to watch the world, but instead of cutting themselves off from their feelings and saving them for later, use them for their purpose. instead of getting their sense of belonging and worth from their ability to be smarter than everyone else, they need to realize that they are fine teh way they are, and appreciate the gifts of others as well. also, they need to bring in their neglected doing center. THATS the key, really, getting in touch with the gut. : >>>Good. : : healthy 5s go to 8. (8s identify with doing, scramble with int, neglect emot, Di e.) 8 is the typical aggressive assertive hero boss dominant type; chiefly concerned with power, with managing and protecting their tribe, acting from the gut. as this happens, they start to take control of their environment, live in the moment; realize that they already have all the knowledge they need to act, that they are powerful enough to descend from teh tower and be in the world. their withdrawn quietude transforms into healthy detatchment, allowing them to deal with problems without becoming overwhelmed. they start to see the value of their tribe, and take action to make sure that it is on the right track. others around them are amazed at their air of confidence and their ability to fully grasp situations so easily. : >>>Good. : : as 5s get unhealty, the scrambling between int and emot worsens. they have little or no concept of what they feel about anything. all that exists for them, all that gives them value and happiness and safety, is indulging in intellectual persuits. the theories become more real to them than the objects they describe. fixed on warped models of the world, they revise their observations to fit the models, rather than the otehr way around. they are argumentative if their ideas are questioned, anything anyone else comes up with is immediately met with skepticism and scorn. ignoring emotions, not letting anyone get too close, they are truly alone. as the disconnection from the world worsens, this becomes unbearable after a point. : >>>Might worth making a note about inertia and schizoid personality. : : they go down to 7 (Id e). 7s are consumers; jumping from one fun thing to the next. the grass on the other side of the street may be greener, but they aren't even looking farther than the next PATCH, and WOW, it's SO much better than this one i'm on! 5s in this state snap out of their disconnection with a vengence, drinking, being impulsive, simply trying to drown out the pain of lonliness with the empty pleasure of indulgence. this represents a scrambling of all three centers. since they are not truly acting in the way that they should be, the desire for connection is not found. they find themsleves just as alone as before, but with a hangover and an empty wallet. so, they retreat once again, in an unhealthy cycle. "i TRIED to interact witht eh world, and it didn't work!" at their very worst, they can even become masochistic, using pain as a means of forcing themselves to feel something, or suicidal, which truly is hte ultimate severance from the physical world, from existence itself. : >>>God, this one hurts it has such a true ring. Good. : : 56: more practical, organized and skeptical. 6 (de I) is the phobic, team-oriented, anxious type; fixated on authority, suspicious, US and THEM. (that's SUCH a brutalization of type 6. my sister would kill me. oh well.) they are not as interested as 54s in things that do not appear to have any relevance to the real world. they tend to be more withdrawn and anxious, but when healthy, they are very practical, organized, and quiet. nicola tesla was a 56, albert einstien was a 54. einstien had a lot of insights and discoveries about the nature of electromagnetism and fields, but it was tesla that actually invented and built the electric motor. some other 56es: niles crane from frasier, superman/clark kent, al gore (i think, hard to tell with politicians cause they work so hard on their image) hmm.. 56es are harder to find for some reason. i know a few irl, but you probably haven't met any of them :) i think edison might have been a 56, but he was a real loon, and i don't know enough about him to say, really. : : 54: more artistic, iconoclastic, individualistic. 4 (Ei d) is the stereotypical passionate artistic type; sense of uniqueness, appreciation for aesthetic and beuaty; 4 is to emotion as 5 is to intellect. 54s are a little more into the beauty of elegant theories. they are often drawn to areas like music or literature where their insightful rational analysis can yield truly original creations. attached to the feeling of uniqueness, they are much more intellectually provocative than the other subtype, shaking the tree to see what falls out. they are more concerned with whargo (Whats *REALLY* Going On) than 56es, who mostly just care about hte information that's relevant. (again, einstien's unified field theory and special relativity compared to tesla's ac generator and dc motor.) some 54s of note: me, ayn rand, spiderman, aki ross (final fantasy movie), eli arroway (contact) and her creator, carl sagan, the verbose pothead in road trip. (classic 54 line... "i said the car would make the jump, i never said the wheels wouldn't fall off!") i think the lead singer of alice in chains is a really unhealthy 54. "i want you to kill me, and pull me under, i want to feel no more." : >>>OK but it seems like you could say more. Maybe I’ll ask my sister the 5w6 to write a description of 5w4 by what she knows of me. That should be interesting to get an analytical view but from the outside. : On the whole, I do like your way of viewing centers. It makes sense and you describe integration and disintegration well. It only some of the interpretations of significance that seem a little imprecise (note: that’s not wrong) here and there. Very interesting, Isaac. : Liz

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