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This post has a rating of Type 5: Rational Audiences Only

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Posted by RoTtEn ApPlE on September 18, 2001 at 21:19:38:

In Reply to: Re: Ugh... a post for 5s posted by Ryan on September 18, 2001 at 20:27:17:

: I guess it's hard to be lighthearted after all of this. The thing that bothers me most is that Americans are just emphasizing their nationality more, which is the whole crux of this problem to begin with and the reason they were attacked. I guess I don't like the idea of nationality at all although it certainly makes the World Cup and Olympics more interesting to watch. I suppose it's unavoidable for humans to start drawing boundaries around each other to mark territory... we just do it with lines on a map and not with piss like other animals. I just think people should think of this more as an act against the ideal of what humans should be and not as much an act against some geopolitical entity known as the USA. If I felt a sense of common identity with more Americans around me it might be different but I've always felt pretty "unAmerican" and have been proud of that. It's why I've never gotten into the flag waving stuff, including at the present moment.

>>> This is very similar to the point I was trying to raise to Cory in that thread that got erased because apparently I didn't say it nicely enough. Some of it may be my own lack of understanding of things like flag waving that goes back to poor participation in high school pep rallies... but... the world is so different now that nationality is becoming increasingly irrelevant. I think the Average Joe/Jane has real difficulty seeing things this as a war of ideology that is a loose fit to their idealized concepts (represented by flag waving) of 'American' ideology.

Hey, maybe it's time I repost that thread here on the 5 board where we can handle it. I took out the phrase where I call Cory 'Mr. Sarcastic Exaggeration' because I don't want anyone think that was a personal attack. There was one expletive in the thread which has been removed. The the CEO of the Emmy's... I don't want to offend. ;)

****************************************************************

Cory 1 : : : : As Mikko pointed out, this is more than an attack against the United States. The World Trade Center was brimming with people from all around the world. It was an international financial center...hence the name. Many Americans died...but so did Australians, Germans, Japanese, Brazilians, Swedes, Finns, Swiss, Chinese, Koreans, and many other people. This is definitely one of the most appalling acts to have occurred in 100 years. It was a completely unprovoked attack on innocent civilians from around the world.

Liz 1 : : : >>> The age of nations is ending. This is a war of ideology in which those enlisted in the ranks of COMMERCE are not innocent civilians. The dollar is a powerful weapon. The Trade Center is as much a military target as the Pentagon.

Cory 2 : : You're right! They're so evil! They are anything but "innocent civilians". I bet that couple who held hands as they fell 100 stories were plotting the destruction of the arab world. Oh and those people in wheelchairs with no way to get down the building as it collapsed...good riddance.

Liz 2 : >>> I didn't say they were evil or that their horrible deaths were justified. The tactics were very inhumane. War isn't a matter of 'good' vs. 'evil' (this is life, not the movies)... but conflicting interests. I was merely trying to show we can't look at it the same way we have looked at wars in the past... with borders and armies and governments.

Cory 1 : : : : I fear this won't be the end of it. What's next? A bomb in Heathrow, killing 500? An attack on a Tokyo Subway (already happened)? The terrorists behind this are vicious monsters -- I don't think "people" is the right word to describe them

Liz 1 : : : >>> No, they are PEOPLE... with an incomprehensible mentality... but PEOPLE none the less.

Cory 2 : : Hey Liz, you just proved that your mind is a computer...and nothing more so, since you took this literally. Yea, NO [expletive removed] they're "people". Do you even understand metaphor? If a serial killer preys on kids and people call him a monster, do you go "Well he doesn't have fangs or wings so he can't be a monster..."

Liz 2 : >>> Haha... I didn't take it literally. (And the brain is not like a computer.) You were using LANGUAGE to manipulate feelings and recategorize... a touch of propaganda... I was undoing that. Reminded me of a cartoon from WWII I saw in High School of a Japanese soldier made to look like an ape. Why was that done?

Liz 1 : : : >>> I agree the US needs to take firm action... but not rash action to placate general feelings of reliatory rage. That would be the same as attacking random muslim people in the US. This is war but a very different kind of war than we have fought before. One might even argue that 'Afghanistan' does not exist in this context. I'm very interested to see how this is handled.

Cory 2 : : Yes, you have a point. I don't think launching missiles into Kabul (and killing civilians) is the right thing to do. What I do think we should do is threaten Afghanistan and Iraq into turning over bin Laden and his men or we turn their countries into smoldering parking lots. Take out their entire armies. Have massive economic and diplomatic sanctions. Squeeze the terrorists out. Either way, whatever we do, we can't go soft...as what the French are suggesting.

Liz 2 : >>> Well, you know the French with their berets and neckerchiefs...

*****************************************************************

Follow Ups:

Re: How rational were you when you opened your legs for him? P 14:00:46 09/19/01 (15)
- Pretty rational but a little drunk RoTtEn ApPlE 17:18:45 09/19/01 (12)
  - Re: Pretty rational but a little drunk P 17:41:50 09/19/01 (11)
    - Hahahhaha... RoTtEn ApPlE 21:19:24 09/19/01 (9)
      - Re: Hahahhaha... P 23:55:10 09/19/01 (2)
        
        P, you're still my favorite poster for trading insults. (nt) RoTtEn ApPlE 04:17:45 09/20/01 (1)
        
        percy what happened? isaac 10:39:12 09/20/01 (0)
      - Re: Hahahhaha... Primer Gray 22:40:39 09/19/01 (5)
        
        Re: Hahahhaha... P 23:57:25 09/19/01 (4)
        
        You seem tense... Primer Gray 00:04:06 09/20/01 (3)
        
        Re: You seem tense... P 08:34:49 09/20/01 (2)
        
        Good job Cory 19:31:49 09/23/01 (1)
        
        Re: Good job P 16:37:54 09/27/01 (0)
    - Speaking of irrational.... Primer Gray 18:17:22 09/19/01 (0)
- percy, why are you so jealous of anyone having sex? maybe cause he's a gay homophobe (nt) 17:07:26 09/19/01 (1)
  - Re: Hey, pathetic parasite. P 17:46:57 09/19/01 (0)
With Daniel's comments RoTtEn ApPlE 21:24:08 09/18/01 (0)

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: : I guess it's hard to be lighthearted after all of this. The thing that bothers me most is that Americans are just emphasizing their nationality more, which is the whole crux of this problem to begin with and the reason they were attacked. I guess I don't like the idea of nationality at all although it certainly makes the World Cup and Olympics more interesting to watch. I suppose it's unavoidable for humans to start drawing boundaries around each other to mark territory... we just do it with lines on a map and not with piss like other animals. I just think people should think of this more as an act against the ideal of what humans should be and not as much an act against some geopolitical entity known as the USA. If I felt a sense of common identity with more Americans around me it might be different but I've always felt pretty "unAmerican" and have been proud of that. It's why I've never gotten into the flag waving stuff, including at the present moment. : >>> This is very similar to the point I was trying to raise to Cory in that thread that got erased because apparently I didn't say it nicely enough. Some of it may be my own lack of understanding of things like flag waving that goes back to poor participation in high school pep rallies... but... the world is so different now that nationality is becoming increasingly irrelevant. I think the Average Joe/Jane has real difficulty seeing things this as a war of ideology that is a loose fit to their idealized concepts (represented by flag waving) of 'American' ideology. : Hey, maybe it's time I repost that thread here on the 5 board where we can handle it. I took out the phrase where I call Cory 'Mr. Sarcastic Exaggeration' because I don't want anyone think that was a personal attack. There was one expletive in the thread which has been removed. The the CEO of the Emmy's... I don't want to offend. ;) : **************************************************************** : Cory 1 : : : : As Mikko pointed out, this is more than an attack against the United States. The World Trade Center was brimming with people from all around the world. It was an international financial center...hence the name. Many Americans died...but so did Australians, Germans, Japanese, Brazilians, Swedes, Finns, Swiss, Chinese, Koreans, and many other people. This is definitely one of the most appalling acts to have occurred in 100 years. It was a completely unprovoked attack on innocent civilians from around the world. : Liz 1 : : : >>> The age of nations is ending. This is a war of ideology in which those enlisted in the ranks of COMMERCE are not innocent civilians. The dollar is a powerful weapon. The Trade Center is as much a military target as the Pentagon. : Cory 2 : : You're right! They're so evil! They are anything but "innocent civilians". I bet that couple who held hands as they fell 100 stories were plotting the destruction of the arab world. Oh and those people in wheelchairs with no way to get down the building as it collapsed...good riddance. : Liz 2 : >>> I didn't say they were evil or that their horrible deaths were justified. The tactics were very inhumane. War isn't a matter of 'good' vs. 'evil' (this is life, not the movies)... but conflicting interests. I was merely trying to show we can't look at it the same way we have looked at wars in the past... with borders and armies and governments. : Cory 1 : : : : I fear this won't be the end of it. What's next? A bomb in Heathrow, killing 500? An attack on a Tokyo Subway (already happened)? The terrorists behind this are vicious monsters -- I don't think "people" is the right word to describe them : Liz 1 : : : >>> No, they are PEOPLE... with an incomprehensible mentality... but PEOPLE none the less. : Cory 2 : : Hey Liz, you just proved that your mind is a computer...and nothing more so, since you took this literally. Yea, NO [expletive removed] they're "people". Do you even understand metaphor? If a serial killer preys on kids and people call him a monster, do you go "Well he doesn't have fangs or wings so he can't be a monster..." : Liz 2 : >>> Haha... I didn't take it literally. (And the brain is not like a computer.) You were using LANGUAGE to manipulate feelings and recategorize... a touch of propaganda... I was undoing that. Reminded me of a cartoon from WWII I saw in High School of a Japanese soldier made to look like an ape. Why was that done? : Liz 1 : : : >>> I agree the US needs to take firm action... but not rash action to placate general feelings of reliatory rage. That would be the same as attacking random muslim people in the US. This is war but a very different kind of war than we have fought before. One might even argue that 'Afghanistan' does not exist in this context. I'm very interested to see how this is handled. : Cory 2 : : Yes, you have a point. I don't think launching missiles into Kabul (and killing civilians) is the right thing to do. What I do think we should do is threaten Afghanistan and Iraq into turning over bin Laden and his men or we turn their countries into smoldering parking lots. Take out their entire armies. Have massive economic and diplomatic sanctions. Squeeze the terrorists out. Either way, whatever we do, we can't go soft...as what the French are suggesting. : Liz 2 : >>> Well, you know the French with their berets and neckerchiefs... : *****************************************************************

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