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Re: Worlds of the 4 and 5

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Posted by Ryan (65.141.164.140) on August 15, 2002 at 22:08:35:

In Reply to: Re: Worlds of the 4 and 5 posted by RoTtEn ApPlE (204.30.211.195) on August 15, 2002 at 17:40:48:

> > I suppose. But I still think most 5s at a healthy to average level are aware of what they are doing and know that they are "thinkers" and not "feelers." From the average to unhealthy level, 5s tend to just avoid people altogether and don't give a sh*t so it's really not an issue. I think that pretending emotion is more of a problem for unhealthy 4s who have their emotions all locked away, know that they should be feeling something but don't, and thus pretend an emotion. Maybe it is different being a 5 and female but I'm sure you were aware most of the time that you were feigning emotion. Perhaps the times you actually felt like an emotional person was more a result of your 4 wing than your 5 core.

> Yes, I agree that most 5s see themselves as thinkers rather than feelers. That's not the same as misidentifying yourself as a 4 because your THOUGHTS dwell a great deal on the emotions you do have. I truly think some 5s don't clue in to the difference between BEING emotional and constantly analyzing one's emotional state. Some 5s have the opposite problem where they think they are virtual cyborgs because they are hyper-aware that they are disconnected from the emotional experience. Me? I'm only an emotional person right before my period. ;)

I'd argue that they just don't understand the enneagram then, not that they are mistyping themselves. So maybe you're right to a certain extent. I wouldn't think it would be too difficult, though. Hell, the MBTI identifies the difference and most people take the MBTI long before they discover the enneagram. But if you claim you've known people that confused I'm not going to argue with you.

> Well, if you base it on choices, changing enneatype makes a certain amount of sense but I don't agree. I think motivation is deeper than that and falls back to old, old developmental patterns that are hardwired by a certain age. Environment can certainly impact how our type plays out. In the teens and early twenties I think many 5s seem more 4ish... because identity is just a major life issue at that time.

I suppose it's better to judge people by unconscious reaction then. It's easier to tell the people motivated by thinking and the ones motivated by feeling that way. As a minor example, even when I was in my early 20s and my mother called to say my our cat from childhood died I didn't react while my intelligent 4w5 brother who studies philosophy and tries to act rational broke out in tears. I just rationalized death away like any hardcore thinking 5 would. 4s have told me that to them their emotions are like a dam that has suddenly broke open (because they keep so much of it inside). I've seen this reaction in people (including ones on this board) who I was confused if they were a 4 or a 5 and it definitely convinced me toward 4. 5s may act emotional but there's always this deliberateness to it. Nothing ever overflows. I'm emotional but I would say my emotions are like a trickling stream while my intellect is like a swiftly flowing river. I guess it's just a matter of helping a person stuck between 4 and 5 figure out which is a stronger flow for them (no references to your period here). But the point is, I think anyone who knows about the enneagram should be able to help a confused person distinguish this. It's not as nebulous as you make it out to be.

> I have a very strong P preference. That seems to mean intolerance for a 'complete' system that is imperfect.

Yes, perhaps the reason why INTPs often don't finish projects before moving on to another one is because they don't feel like the project can ever be totally finished. It's why so many of them end up in academia where everything is just research building upon more research that never ends. I'm not a true INTJ but I don't think I'd ever be totally satisfied in a world where I felt like no project could ever be completed.

Ryan

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> > > I suppose. But I still think most 5s at a healthy to average level are aware of what they are doing and know that they are "thinkers" and not "feelers." From the average to unhealthy level, 5s tend to just avoid people altogether and don't give a sh*t so it's really not an issue. I think that pretending emotion is more of a problem for unhealthy 4s who have their emotions all locked away, know that they should be feeling something but don't, and thus pretend an emotion. Maybe it is different being a 5 and female but I'm sure you were aware most of the time that you were feigning emotion. Perhaps the times you actually felt like an emotional person was more a result of your 4 wing than your 5 core. > > Yes, I agree that most 5s see themselves as thinkers rather than feelers. That's not the same as misidentifying yourself as a 4 because your THOUGHTS dwell a great deal on the emotions you do have. I truly think some 5s don't clue in to the difference between BEING emotional and constantly analyzing one's emotional state. Some 5s have the opposite problem where they think they are virtual cyborgs because they are hyper-aware that they are disconnected from the emotional experience. Me? I'm only an emotional person right before my period. ;) > I'd argue that they just don't understand the enneagram then, not that they are mistyping themselves. So maybe you're right to a certain extent. I wouldn't think it would be too difficult, though. Hell, the MBTI identifies the difference and most people take the MBTI long before they discover the enneagram. But if you claim you've known people that confused I'm not going to argue with you. > > Well, if you base it on choices, changing enneatype makes a certain amount of sense but I don't agree. I think motivation is deeper than that and falls back to old, old developmental patterns that are hardwired by a certain age. Environment can certainly impact how our type plays out. In the teens and early twenties I think many 5s seem more 4ish... because identity is just a major life issue at that time. > I suppose it's better to judge people by unconscious reaction then. It's easier to tell the people motivated by thinking and the ones motivated by feeling that way. As a minor example, even when I was in my early 20s and my mother called to say my our cat from childhood died I didn't react while my intelligent 4w5 brother who studies philosophy and tries to act rational broke out in tears. I just rationalized death away like any hardcore thinking 5 would. 4s have told me that to them their emotions are like a dam that has suddenly broke open (because they keep so much of it inside). I've seen this reaction in people (including ones on this board) who I was confused if they were a 4 or a 5 and it definitely convinced me toward 4. 5s may act emotional but there's always this deliberateness to it. Nothing ever overflows. I'm emotional but I would say my emotions are like a trickling stream while my intellect is like a swiftly flowing river. I guess it's just a matter of helping a person stuck between 4 and 5 figure out which is a stronger flow for them (no references to your period here). But the point is, I think anyone who knows about the enneagram should be able to help a confused person distinguish this. It's not as nebulous as you make it out to be. > > I have a very strong P preference. That seems to mean intolerance for a 'complete' system that is imperfect. > Yes, perhaps the reason why INTPs often don't finish projects before moving on to another one is because they don't feel like the project can ever be totally finished. It's why so many of them end up in academia where everything is just research building upon more research that never ends. I'm not a true INTJ but I don't think I'd ever be totally satisfied in a world where I felt like no project could ever be completed. > Ryan

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