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Enneagram Type 5 Board Archive Re: identity and 5sPosted by Ryan (65.141.165.103) on September 05, 2002 at 17:50:22: In Reply to: Re: identity and 5s posted by signor ferrari (192.4.227.244) on September 05, 2002 at 14:05:20:
I feel the same way about this "transcendental I" that I do about organized religion. If something is non-empirical I just don't buy it. > What you're saying about the separate identity is also true of some fives. It was true of me when my four wing was stronger. This is generally a "schizoid" personality structure. I don't think I was ever really schizoid, but there was a tendency to become very detached from myself, to see my body as a thing among other things rather than to feel myself integrally connected to my body. I've made a lot of progress in the 8 direction, though, so I've generally become a more physical or physically-oriented person. Yes, you are right. I think this is a larger problem for 5w4s than 5w6s. It's what I like to call the "disembodied head" syndrome. I think a lot of it comes from a conflict between having one's core type in the thinking triad while the wing is in the feeling triad. Overthinking along with the 4ish tendency to underexpress their feeling impulses leads to a separation from reality, a reality which includes one's physical body. I've never experienced it myself as a strong secondary 6 wing has always kept me grounded in being active. If I don't "do" something after a while I kind of start going crazy. On the other hand, 5w6s are more likely to experience avoidant personality disorder. They have a conflict between the qualities of the 6 wing which include the desire for harmony and mutual trust with others (6s love groups), but the 5 core keeps them withdrawn. But I don't think 5w6s really have the problem with connecting to reality. > The relationship to Kant, if you wanted to draw the connection, is that we only see ourselves as passive. Maybe we have to FEEL ourselves as active, and feeling is difficult for Five? Yes, you show yourself there with your desire to WANT to feel. This comes from your 4 wing. (Just an idea.) Freedom ultimately has nothing to do with objects. Objects just respond to cause and effect. If you begin to see yourself as passive, you might think you have no freedom. Heh. I remember when I was in college, I had a professor who insisted to me that there was no such thing as a free will. I argued for some time, and then I sort of gave in. After that I walked around not believing I was free. I started to do some really weird things too, became very impulsive, wandering around campus late at night. "What are you doing out here?" -- "I'm not free." That lasted for about three days, at the end of which disregarded it as nonsense and got back to my studies. Just goes to show the uselessness into which the idle mind can wander. > So the punchline is -- fives can become so detached that they are detached from themselves. They see their bodies as objects, subject to the laws of nature and the laws of other people, rather than as forming an integral whole with the "detached" consciousness. Yes, it's a problem for 5w4s. You talk about going to 8. When Riso talks about this, I really think the advice is more relevant to 5w4s than 5w6s, who like I said have a problem with connection with others. The question becomes, how do you go to 8? The thing is, this is really a symbolic reference. You don't actually BECOME an 8, but you symbolically act like one. The issue is one of feeling and of inspiration. 5w4s don't act because they don't feel inspired to act. Inspiration is an impulse of the feeling triad. When you repress your 4 wing, you repress your feeling triad and don't become inspired to do anything of a creative nature. That's why so many 5w4s are incredibly intelligent "nobodies." If you still have a problem with this, I advise that you look deep into yourself and attempt to discover what you feel passionately about and pursue it. Discovering passion will help bring out your 4 wing and make you a more complete person. Ryan
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