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Re: Zionism
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Re: Zionism
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Posted by Epoxy (216.166.228.231) on December 03, 2002 at 10:16:41:
In Reply to: Re: Zionism posted by six sense (68.5.121.53) on December 03, 2002 at 01:45:54:
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> I know that they don’t want to give Golan Heights up because it’s the best position to attack the Israel. As for give the land up, nobody would do that. They are not much different than any other country. Germans probably want to get some of their land back but nobody is going to give it up. The WW2 is over and there is no way to get it back. Finland wants to get its land as well. But I doubt very much that Russians will ever agree to that. Mexicans want to get “their” California back. So what? What is the “golden rule” of giving land back? Do you know of any historical fact when it was done peacefully?
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> I didn’t try to trace Russian Jews roots, but if I am correct they were forced to move to Poland, Ukraine, and Russia from Spain and Portugal because those countries were more tolerant than other European countries during the Inquisition. European Jews are called Ashkenazi Jews. (As opposite to Jews from Ethiopia for example. They are called Sephardic Jews.) But I know Russian history and I lived there. Before the revolution of 1917, Jews were not allowed to live in big cities (they lived in special places designated by the government), vote, attend universities, and some other things unless they were converted. There were “pogroms” when the government allowed to murder Jews just because they are Jews. There was a very short period in Russian history, right after the revolution, when Jews were allowed to be equal (that is why many of them participated in it at the beginning), but it ended up pretty quickly. When I lived back in Russia the picture was less violent but if you were born with a Jewish last name or looked like a Jew, you were treated there as a Jew. Even if you wanted to be Russian for some reason, you would be reminded every day that you are a Jew, you are different, and “that country is not for you”. So I don’t see why they are not real Jews. What does make a person to be a Jew? Jewish religion? Probably it is true here, in America. But it was and still is by blood in Russia as well as it was in Nazi Germany. Interesting; thanks for the input. Yeah, what makes one "Jewish" is not really clear. Some people think of it as a religion and others think of it as one (or several) ethnic group or race. I think the Nazis considered someone Jewish if one of their grandparents was an ethnic Jew. I believe those who are Jewish tend to think of it as *both*. A person who is not Jewish by race may convert to Judaism religiously, but I don't believe they are ever really thought of as Jews by most ethnic Jews (I read somewhere that this is a problem for African or Chinese Jews who emigrate to Israel, but I don't have a lot of info on this). Also of course there is the chasm between ultra-orthodox Jews and those who are more progressive, but this rift between fundamentalists and progressives is common to all religions I think. Regarding giving up the land...I agree with what you are saying, but the big difference is that all of the war-time land-shifts you referred to occurred during or before WWII, and before the founding of the United Nations. The Israeli land-grab occurred only 30+ years ago, in full view of the "international community" and in clear violation of UN-recognized borders. The idea of having a UN is to stabilize borders and allow for peace, partially through punitive actions where such borders are violated (as in the Gulf War, actions in the former Yugoslavia, economic sanctions against Iraq, etc.). I agree about Israel's problems of attacks from neighboring territories, but that is a separate issue that will require some other solution. Maybe they will never give the land back (I see no indication that they will), but unless and until they do they will be seen as lawless thugs by a large portion of the developed world, not to mention Arabic countries.
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