Posted by pork (68.55.164.40) on January 11, 2003 at 16:24:48:
In Reply to: The usual: 5w4 or 4w5 posted by interlocking (63.249.99.95) on January 11, 2003 at 06:07:22:
> This seems to be a frequent query. I've read several Enneagram books, and the messages here on telling the two apart.
> It seems that a common way of putting it to the test is the idea that fives primarily strive to understand the world, while fours primarily strive to understand themselves.
Unfortunately, this "common way" is something of a superficial red herring. From your elaboration, I'd say you're well aware of that. :)
Since you've read many books, I suppose you're familiar with Riso and Hudson's "Basic Fears" for each type. I'd focus on those if I were you, because there's where you find distinctions that are at least palpable, if not absolute.
The point is not that Fives tend more toward a desire to understand "the world (sans self)." The point, rather, is the motivation - the "Basic Fears" - that, while not predicated on the distinction between "self" and "other," still lead Enneagram authors and hobbyists to vague conclusions such as the "Basic Desires" you're bringing to issue.
> As far as fears go, not understanding runs pretty deep, but so does not being understood. They strike at different levels, although I think fear of not understanding runs deeper. Fear of not being understood provokes a more obvious emotional display, but the fear itself is not as deeply terror-inspiring as the fear of not understanding things. Fear of not being understood *does* provoke an extremely fourish emotional display, although I tend to keep such displays private or near people who don't mind dealing with them. Fear of not understanding is so paralyzing that no emotional display is possible except maybe shaking. Likewise, in private, or only around people who don't mind dealing with it.
Now THERE'S something to go on! You don't seem to have trouble discerning the relative "strength indeces" of your fears; that's good for the matter at hand.
Have you thought about the reasons for these distinct fears? That's what defines your type.
> Someone posted about whether major life decisions are made by "thought" or "feeling". I use a combination of logic and intuition to make such decisions, which can include emotions.
Another red herring.
> Is there a real litmus test
I haven't found anything that easy.
> or do some of us exist between the two?
Not sure.
^(oo)^