Posted by Paul the Pharmacist (66.27.149.149) on January 16, 2003 at 15:38:18:
In Reply to: The usual: 5w4 or 4w5 posted by interlocking (63.249.99.95) on January 11, 2003 at 06:07:22:
> This seems to be a frequent query. I've read several Enneagram books, and the messages here on telling the two apart. It seems that a common way of putting it to the test is the idea that fives primarily strive to understand the world, while fours primarily strive to understand themselves.
> My problem is this: How can you do one without the other? A person is part of the world and their own mind shapes their perceptions of the world, so understanding the world must include understanding oneself. Since who a person is is irrevocably shaped in some manner by the world, understanding oneself must include understanding the world.
> In my mind, the two are not separable, so I cannot have one over the other as a primary motivation.
> As far as fears go, not understanding runs pretty deep, but so does not being understood. They strike at different levels, although I thnk fear of not understanding runs deeper. Fear of not being understood provokes a more obvious emotional display, but the fear itself is not as deeply terror-inspiring as the fear of not understanding things. Fear of not being understood *does* provoke an extremely fourish emotional display, although I tend to keep such displays private or near people who don't mind dealing with them. Fear of not understanding is soparalyzing that no emotional display is possible except maybe shaking. Likewise, in private, or only around people who don't mind dealing with it
> Someone posted about whether major life decisions are made by "thought" or "feeling". I use a combination of logic andintuition to make such decisions, which can include emotion
> Is there a real litmus test or do some of us exist between tht
Let me have a tab at this 5w4 vs 4w5 dilemma. I think it is how you want to define what each type is. I will give you an analogy: For many years diabetes was defined as a fasting blood sugar over 140mg % on two occasions. Then in 1996 this was changed to 126.All of a sudden there were millions of extra diabetics, a boon to the diabetes industry but difficult fo all of those people who had a blood sugar of say 130 and considered themselves very healthy. Im talking about type 2 or middle age diabetes primarily.
If you define a five as someone who is like Dr. Spock, all logic and no feelings at all I am a 4w5. If you define a five as someone who is VERY concerned with learning and aquiring knowledge I am definitely a five wing four. Loooking at interlocking's list I am definitely a five, yet I have a strong four wing. I am particularly thinking of that aspect of a four where "conversations" with people not present are carried on mentally.
People have always looked at me as scholarly which I am. In my job whenever there is a question about a medicine the typical collective response is "ask Paul, if anyone knows he does. I love having and aquiring knowledge. My "computer room" is stacked with books and medical articles I have xeroxed. Just yesterday i read an article on the side effects of the immunosuppressant drug "cyclosporin" just to have the info in my brain.Then I read an article about the new antifungal drug "Voriconozole"and its use in invasive Aspirgillosis (a mold infection that hits people immunocompramized by chemotherapy) just to have that info even though I wont use it where I am presently workin.
I love privacy and thank the stars my wife goes to bed at 9pm. I often will stay up until 4am reading and storing knowledge. I kind of curse the day television was created as I see most of it as distracting noise, although I enjoy the Discovery and History Channel.
I recall a paragraph form Palmer's The Enneagram in love and work. To summarize she states that a five does not suffer from lonliness when the retreat into privacy is voluntary and there is somebodyon the other side of the door. She goes on "when nobody knocks on the door, privacy can feel like prison."That fits me to a tee. When my ex wife (the 1w2) and I split I felt VERY lonely as not having children nor siblings (with the nieces and nephews that usually accomany siblings)I was important in nobody's life. I have no close friends as if I have free time I prefer being in my own head in my books.
My definition of a five is a person who is fascinated with gathering information, not to impress as a three would, but simply to possess the information. I know there is a non revealing Dr. Spockish subset of fives as I worked with a Pharmacy tech lke this, a 5w6. Yet this is a variety of five just as an apple is a variety of fruit, not the whole spectrum. Those of us with strong four wings can be very emotional.
To me, from a feeling standpoint it is irrelevantwhether Im a 4w5 or a 5w4. I have no real preferences.Perhaps I lean slightly toward five as a preference because my persona is "the scholar" and fives are the scholars of the Enneagram although this is a gross oversimplification.
Until there is a biochemical test that can determine Enneagram type it will be an educated guess.Some say Freud was a six, Riso calls him a 5w6 etc etc. It is all very subjective.
In my experience, the only Enneagram type that I have encountered who sometimes vigorously denies their (to me ) obvious type are sixes.
Paul
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