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Re: Yes, ma'am

Re: Yes, ma'am

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Posted by Margaret on November 18, 2000 at 21:45:29:

In Reply to: Yes, ma'am posted by Perfect Angel on November 18, 2000 at 20:44:24:

: : 1)If you believe, what would you gain; and if you do not believe, what do you risk losing?

: Well, that all depends on what's really true, doesn't it? Reality? I KNOW I would lose many physical delights under the shackles of morality... concrete losses. On the other hand, what does one gain from belief? Only promises, ideals... essentially just thin air.

***No. We're not debating about truth or reality (geez - you young people always get so side-tracked so easy). We are talking about actual losses and gains. Agree that promises *not kept* are thin air. But ideals, not the same.

: : 2)Ok, now what's the likelihood of either of any of the above to be true?: who knows? I'd like to, but I don't.

: Likelihood/probability is different from knowing.

***Again, you are going off topic once more.

Ofcourse we cannot KNOW but we can use the evidence to draw conclusions about the likelihood.

***Any and all 'evidence' can be used to both/either/or/and agree and/or/either/both disagree at any point in time regardless.

My reasoning: If a Christian-style God exists, he is actively seeking connection to human beings. Then he has to have provided us with the tools to make that connection. (otherwise he's just a sado-masochist, creating beings he wants to connect with and cannot.) So, if the tools are present... our reasoning/intellect (as humans our most developed tool) should lead us to the conclusion of his existence. Mine doesn't...

***You could be using the wrong tools. Reasoning and intellect are not the only tools He provided us with.

the evidence seems to overwhelming suggest that no active, caring God exists. There may be some pattern or mathematical equation at the heart of the universe but it is impersonal. The elements of religion with it's promises of eternal life are just too convenient. I am convinced, cursed with the knowledge of our own death, we have invented a sustaining life force (aka God) to help us deal with that knowledge.

*** So why not take advantage of it and just use it while it's there?

Also, I am tired of talking on a computer - we should be talking in person about this stuff. Where do you live? What's your email ad?

: : So based on both the above criterion - I make my decision from there - and stick to it.

: Likewise. If you confident in your conclusion, I can respect that. :)

Follow Ups:

also M 22:01:16 11/18/00 (6)
- How do you figure this one... A Rather Patient Devil 23:15:56 11/18/00 (5)
  - ok, son, it's like this... Mother Margaret 16:47:16 11/19/00 (4)
    - My mom's a type 2 in psycho-therapy for panic disorder... R U 1 2? Rotten Apple 18:53:20 11/19/00 (3)
      - Stop disrespecting your Mother - How dare you- Shame on you Margaret 19:13:37 11/19/00 (2)
        
        We need to end this discussion - it is never going to get any better - therefore it (and this exchange of topic) is now officially over and done with nt M 19:24:55 11/19/00 (1)
        
        Relax. Think waves... think palm trees.... deep breath. nt Your therapist 19:57:10 11/19/00 (0)

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: : : 1)If you believe, what would you gain; and if you do not believe, what do you risk losing? : : Well, that all depends on what's really true, doesn't it? Reality? I KNOW I would lose many physical delights under the shackles of morality... concrete losses. On the other hand, what does one gain from belief? Only promises, ideals... essentially just thin air. : ***No. We're not debating about truth or reality (geez - you young people always get so side-tracked so easy). We are talking about actual losses and gains. Agree that promises *not kept* are thin air. But ideals, not the same. : : : 2)Ok, now what's the likelihood of either of any of the above to be true?: who knows? I'd like to, but I don't. : : Likelihood/probability is different from knowing. : ***Again, you are going off topic once more. : Ofcourse we cannot KNOW but we can use the evidence to draw conclusions about the likelihood. : ***Any and all 'evidence' can be used to both/either/or/and agree and/or/either/both disagree at any point in time regardless. : My reasoning: If a Christian-style God exists, he is actively seeking connection to human beings. Then he has to have provided us with the tools to make that connection. (otherwise he's just a sado-masochist, creating beings he wants to connect with and cannot.) So, if the tools are present... our reasoning/intellect (as humans our most developed tool) should lead us to the conclusion of his existence. Mine doesn't... : ***You could be using the wrong tools. Reasoning and intellect are not the only tools He provided us with. : the evidence seems to overwhelming suggest that no active, caring God exists. There may be some pattern or mathematical equation at the heart of the universe but it is impersonal. The elements of religion with it's promises of eternal life are just too convenient. I am convinced, cursed with the knowledge of our own death, we have invented a sustaining life force (aka God) to help us deal with that knowledge. : *** So why not take advantage of it and just use it while it's there? : Also, I am tired of talking on a computer - we should be talking in person about this stuff. Where do you live? What's your email ad? : : : So based on both the above criterion - I make my decision from there - and stick to it. : : Likewise. If you confident in your conclusion, I can respect that. :)

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