Re: Telling 3 from 7 - continued

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: : : : : New Comment: I just saw this mesage and your "hello walter" : : : I agree 100 percent plus some! : : : IS and the 7 sin of gluttony sure are related. This is how I model it on the Geldart Enneagram of Consciousness. : : : Point Seven has structure of Jungian functions of consciousness. : : : Enneagram Point Seven has a dominant extraverted side : : : : : : Dominant.............................Auxiliary : : : Personality 1 side...................Personality 2 side : : : Extraversion (outward attention).....Introverted (inward attention) : : : Persona Side.........................Shadow Side : : : 1st sensation(Se or ES) ...........5th sensation (Si or IS) : : : 2nd thinking(Te or ET).............6th thinking (Ti or IT) : : : 3rd feeling (Fe or EF).............7th feeling (Fi or IF) : : : 4th intuition (Ne or EN)...........8th intuition(Ni or IN) : : I find your chart a bit mixed up with impossible combinations (if we buy : : MBTI). Enough about that... : : : So Seven's gluttony (in the 7-8-3 Agressive id Hornevian Triad) is first sees behaviorally as an overuse of the extraverted sensation function. : : : BUt you can see that it is motivated on the Shadow side by introverted sensation. : : : Jung said that it is easier for the Seven (with dominant Se) to be aware in consciousness of inferior introverted intuition (Ni-9)- because it is a free ride. But Seven while placing full attention on that beer in the bar, and imagining one more for the road - is ignoring the Shadow Si-8. Eventually, in the limit Seven is dead drunk, no control (lousy Si functioning), and maybe dead in ahead-on collision. So the Hornevian Triad shows that the 7-8-3 track works as a whole triad. More beer to taste is 3-7, less sense of control in lifting beer mug is 8-3. Collision with a tree is a messd up face at 3 - A backed-up Persona. It all hangs together! : : : ************************************************************ : : As mentioned before I see a link between the enneagram and MBTI. In oposite : : to some others I don't belive in a absolute link, but I think there is a high : : colleration rate between the two systems. : : To me there seems to be some MBTI types there are easy to confuse. Infact : : every function can be quite easy to confuse. : ************************************ : new comment: walter : That's very true! : ***************************************************************** : : Walter I do guess you agree with all I have written above. : *********************************************************** : new comment: walter : Yes, Andy - I do pretty much agree. : ******************************************* : Old Comment: Andy : : : Here comes the tricky part. : : If we talk of MBTI types that fit into enneagramnumbers, I think your stereotyped : : connection is wrong (supported by my EN ), and that you makes the matters more complicated than : : nescecarry. No matter how mutch I twist it I can't get your link's to fit : : with my mind. : : As written in my previos post, I belive in a link between suprior and inferior : : MBTI function and a person's enneagram number. : : One of these link's I see in type seven. : : To start with the dominant and posetive (stereotype) function EN. : : Optimism and a view towards the future (some even live in the future like me) : : Curiosity : : Inferior (stereotype) function that can be destructive, IS. : : Gluttony (getting in toutch with the inferior IS ) : : Pain Representing the hypersensetive IS, and the way from pleasure : : (often gluttony) to pain is short. Two different kind's of ice-creams : : can represent this. : : : : To take the oposite of this... : : Dominant IS, : : Pessimism and a view backwards (living in the past). : : Inferior EN : : kick's in a fatalistic way telling "worst case scenarios". : : In oposite to you : : I think this worst case scenarios is a result of inferior EN and not ET : : as you have in yout theory (since you place inferior ET at 6). : : So if we fit worst case scenarios and pessimism to enneatype 6, I belive : : the dominant and inferor function's of type six often are as I have written : : above. : : Something I miss from you is a logical explanation of the way you adress : : certain MBTI functions at certain enneanumbers. You just makes a statement : : that 7 is ES. But when did a dominant ES start to look like optimism and : : a look towards the future ? : ***************************************** : new comment: walter : I couldn't think of any good reason to go against Riso's assignment of the Jungian extraverted sensation (Se or ES)function and type to Seven. As Riso said, It's one of Jung's clearest. : Seven's are optimistic three ways: the Se is naturally outward oriented - taking in lot of new fresh impression; AND its inferior intuition (bipolar opposite) that has a free ride (Ni-9) for future planning of sorts, and then there is Sevens inferior intuition (polar opposite)concrete possibilities with Ne-4. : As you know, Wagner assigned Ne to Seven. In a way it all depends on how you word the enneagram questionaire questions. For example, do you measure the positive most differentiated function at Seven (Se-7), or do you focus on inferior function effects from unipolar Ne, or bipolar Ni. I looked at Wagner's analysis and the data showed a close call whether to assign Ne oe Se to Seven. : I prefer Se to Seven, but then I give point Six superior introverted feeling as does Riso and Wagner. But I assign intuition as the second Jungian function for Six, instead of the first Jungian function for Seven. That way it acconts for Six's intuition and imagining the worst much better. : The way I lay out the superior Jungian functions around the circle tends to make each point VERY separated and distinct from either Wing. This is how Ichazo designed the enneagram without Jungian theory. I accomplish the same thing at the top level of conscipous Jungian function gift (to use an MBTI idea) instead of the UNCONSCIOUS compulsions associated with the seven sins plus fear and desire. [they can be related to the inferior unipolar or bipolar function however]. : It can be confusing, and it touches on something that John Fudjack found in survey data that he and Pat call S-N blindness. : ************************************************************** : Old Comment: Andy : : Or how can we explain the colorful inner world of many fours with : : EN ? : ******************************************* : new comment: walter : You're right! Both sides are there at Four. And both sides are present at every Enneagram Point. I just say that it is a placement of attention issue! No big deal! Why should'nt any Point be able to us either side? : : I assume that every point can place attention inward or outward. When Four's are most objective, then their extraverted intuition is very much on target - and is supported by extraverted thinking and feeling at its two wings at Point One and Two. The Extraverted or Outward function order from most conscious to least conscious (in the free-will control sense) is: : Ne-Fe-Te-Se. : If Four is in a more navel gaging or inward frame of reference, their world is very rich there in the Heart Triad. The Introverted or Inward function order from most conscious to least conscious (in the free-will control sense) is:Ni-Fi-Tt-Si. It's the Si that provides the heartfelt aches and body sensations related to heart's desires. : ************************************************************ : Old Comment: Andy : : I could ask questions like that on all the numbers (exept 2 and 5 where we agree), : : but I have the impression that I am stuck and getting nowhere trying to : : discuss this with you. : : : : To all of you...I know my argument's are pretty general and not so very well : : formulated, but there is a question about how mutch time this discussion is worth. : ******************************************** : new comment: walter : Your questions are good ones Andy! Even if anyone agreed that my Jungian assignments for the most differentiated function and attitude at each Point were correct - then there would still be a lot of variation in enneagram questionaires and how things are explained. Because historically enneagram compulsions are named at each point that are unconscious - and teachers often work from the bottom unconscious to the conscious top. : Both ways work. I prefer top down, because then I can use MBTI theory for True MBTI Point pairs (called Type in habit). : In many ways, the Enneagram of Personality Types has thrown out Jung's fourth function of intuition, that Junbgian Type, and MBTI Type theory knbows is there. The reason for this flaw is that the Law of Seven only has 6 numbers - so it can only name 6 Jungian functions. This means that teachers have to be very careful to put intuition intuition (Ni-9) and : introverted feeling (Fi-6) back in again. : So what I have had to do with the Enneagram of Consciousness is put back in Jungian intuition explicitly as a superior function, and add a 5th function for Persona and moving functions. : My system is an expansion of Jungian theory and MBTI theory that is compatible with enneagram theory - while showing that the three Centers (so much emphasized) should not be treated as though they were three functions. To do this loses one Jungian function.

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