Re: Telling 3 from 7 - continued

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: : : : : I couldn't think of any good reason to go against Riso's assignment of the Jungian extraverted sensation (Se or ES)function and type to Seven. As Riso said, It's one of Jung's clearest. : : : Seven's are optimistic three ways: the Se is naturally outward oriented - taking in lot of new fresh impression; AND its inferior intuition (bipolar opposite) that has a free ride (Ni-9) for future planning of sorts, and then there is Sevens inferior intuition (polar opposite)concrete possibilities with Ne-4. : : : As you know, Wagner assigned Ne to Seven. In a way it all depends on how you word the enneagram questionaire questions. For example, do you measure the positive most differentiated function at Seven (Se-7), or do you focus on inferior function effects from unipolar Ne, or bipolar Ni. I looked at Wagner's analysis and the data showed a close call whether to assign Ne oe Se to Seven. : : : I prefer Se to Seven, but then I give point Six superior introverted feeling as does Riso and Wagner. But I assign intuition as the second Jungian function for Six, instead of the first Jungian function for Seven. That way it acconts for Six's intuition and imagining the worst much better. : : Everything you mention could be EN, not ES or IN. When you talk about concrete : : possebillities I begin to wonder. The seven is into abstract possebilleties. : : I actually begin to wonder how many real life ES sevens you have met. : : It's great to base theory in reality. : : But it's a plus to be an EN to recognice EN in others. So I guess you might : : have a problem there. When you talk to someone do you know if it's a : : EN or ES ? : : : : The way I see it....There is not possible to create the worst case : : imaginations of the 6 in any other way than having an inferior EN. : : When you read the ISFJ and ISTJ doesn't it ring a bell ? : : Do you mean this sound eightish and not sixish ? : : : : The way I lay out the superior Jungian functions around the circle tends to make each point VERY separated and distinct from either Wing. This is how Ichazo designed the enneagram without Jungian theory. I accomplish the same thing at the top level of conscipous Jungian function gift (to use an MBTI idea) instead of the UNCONSCIOUS compulsions associated with the seven sins plus fear and desire. [they can be related to the inferior unipolar or bipolar function however]. : : : It can be confusing, and it touches on something that John Fudjack found in survey data that he and Pat call S-N blindness. : : I would love to take a discussion with this Ichazo dude, but I don't : : think we would get any way. : : : : : ************************************************************** : : : Old Comment: Andy : : : : Or how can we explain the colorful inner world of many fours with : : : : EN ? : : : ******************************************* : : : new comment: walter : : : You're right! Both sides are there at Four. And both sides are present at every Enneagram Point. I just say that it is a placement of attention issue! No big deal! Why should'nt any Point be able to us either side? : : No, you are wrong, it introverted intuision ! It's a big deal, what's the : : point of your theory if it doesn't matter. : : A inner world in color and a outer in black/white describes many fours. : : That shows a strong IN and a weak ES. No EN here ! If you are an : : introverted feeler you can't use exstraverted feeling as it suit's you. : : The same way you don't use EN. : : A ENFP and INFJ is not the same ! If every person could use functios the : : way you are describing we would not have this discussion. : : : : : I assume that every point can place attention inward or outward. When Four's are most objective, then their extraverted intuition is very much on target - and is supported by extraverted thinking and feeling at its two wings at Point One and Two. The Extraverted or Outward function order from most conscious to least conscious (in the free-will control sense) is: : : : Ne-Fe-Te-Se. : : I think this is wrongheaded babble. : : : : : If Four is in a more navel gaging or inward frame of reference, their world is very rich there in the Heart Triad. The Introverted or Inward function order from most conscious to least conscious (in the free-will control sense) is:Ni-Fi-Tt-Si. It's the Si that provides the heartfelt aches and body sensations related to heart's desires. : : My intuision tells me that this is totally wrong. : : : ************************************************************ : : : Old Comment: Andy : : : : I could ask questions like that on all the numbers (exept 2 and 5 where we agree), : : : : but I have the impression that I am stuck and getting nowhere trying to : : : : discuss this with you. : : : : : : : : To all of you...I know my argument's are pretty general and not so very well : : : : formulated, but there is a question about how mutch time this discussion is worth. : : : ******************************************** : : : new comment: walter : : : Your questions are good ones Andy! Even if anyone agreed that my Jungian assignments for the most differentiated function and attitude at each Point were correct - then there would still be a lot of variation in enneagram questionaires and how things are explained. Because historically enneagram compulsions are named at each point that are unconscious - and teachers often work from the bottom unconscious to the conscious top. : : : Both ways work. I prefer top down, because then I can use MBTI theory for True MBTI Point pairs (called Type in habit). : : : In many ways, the Enneagram of Personality Types has thrown out Jung's fourth function of intuition, that Junbgian Type, and MBTI Type theory knbows is there. The reason for this flaw is that the Law of Seven only has 6 numbers - so it can only name 6 Jungian functions. This means that teachers have to be very careful to put intuition intuition (Ni-9) and : : : introverted feeling (Fi-6) back in again. : : Fuck the law of seven ! (no offence please:) : : : So what I have had to do with the Enneagram of Consciousness is put back in Jungian intuition explicitly as a superior function, and add a 5th function for Persona and moving functions. : : I don't think there was any need for that. : : : My system is an expansion of Jungian theory and MBTI theory that is compatible with enneagram theory - while showing that the three Centers (so much emphasized) should not be treated as though they were three functions. To do this loses one Jungian function. : : My idea is that things should be as simple as possible. I can uderstand : : your system. However I belive the fundament is wrong. Because of that : : every conclusion you use it to get's wrong. : : If a flight ticket was cheaper I would love to take a face to face discussion : : with you. Then I would find your type to. : : You can talk as mutch as you like to about point 0, or becoming no type, : : or beeing able to simulate all MBTI types. I can promise you that : : that's fooling oneself. You can reatch balance sure, but that's not : : the same as having acess to what you won't. : : : : There is no need for me to convince you of your wrongness. For me : : it's more than enough to be right. : : So, this is the end of the discussion for me. : : (end of this arrogant, harssh, rude, stupid post.....:) : ***************************8 : You have great spirit Andy!

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