Re: Walter-Movin' on UP

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Posted by Christy on September 01, 1998 at 11:24:29:

In Reply to: Re: Walter-Movin' on UP posted by walter on September 01, 1998 at 03:06:35:

: Kronus Original Comment:

: : Walter:

: : The life of a SEVEN: Administrative meetings for the beginning of school, soccer practice, soccer mini-seeding tournament, writing a new lesson plan for World History (prep course), fine tuning Auto Mechanics course, Ninth grade advisor, Academic Decathlon advisor, Boy Scouts, Football parent, hiking, fly fishing, plus all the other details of married with children happy existence. In addition to the foregoing I am researching and attempting to understand the mechanics of MBTI and the Enneagram. My silent (SEVEN)prayer: "Grant me the serenity that they not ask, grant me the strength to smile politely if they do and grant me the wisdom to just say, NO!
: **********************************************************************
: Walter Response:

: Hi Kronus:

: It looks like you are getting into the really busy season now. Your coaching work in sports and school will have a lasting benefit for some lucky young people. Good luck as you!

: I just watched the Little League World Series Baseball - Saturday on ABC TV. New Jersey's own Tom's River Little League won the championship game. Can you imagine the thrill of the youngsters and the coach to be there? The sense of teamwork and all those hours of practice was now worth it all. One of the young heros of Saturday's game was not in the regular line-up. He was not one of their top players, and had only hit one home run all year. He came in as a pinch hitter and hit two home runs. Heros somehow rise to the moment when the occasion demands their best.

: ******************************************************************
: Kronus Comment:

: : My question after reading your last post centers on the foundation information of iNtuition v. Sensing. Upon what is the N function based? Is iNtuition founded solely on internalized information? Surely there is, a some point in a person's life, a base of Sensory information upon which cause and effect relationships are drawn.
: ************************
: Walter Response:

: I see what you are getting at. I would say that both sensing and intuition information are both essential attributes of actual objects in events that occur in the real world of change and MOVEMENT where something is experienced and learning takes place.

: Intuition can't be based on thin air; it needs a sensory component. For example, when a baseball player steps up to the plate and faces the pitcher. In the Little League baseball game the pitcher threw the ball at 60 mph across the plate to the catcher, and the batter watched very carefully using all his perception (sensory and intuition function) to anticipate where the ball will be and if he can hit it. The Tom's River home-run hero hit his first homer of the game with two down and two strikes on him. It is impossible to speak meaningfully about sensation and intuition in this example if we forget that the whole point is to use the moving function at Point Three to achieve something.

: The pitcher moves to throw strikes, the catcher to catch balls, and the batter to hit balls. So both sensation and intuition are servants to the work of moving in a winning way. All of the sensations and intuitions are about the game taking place, and the result of each event cannot be predicted in advance.
: **********************************
: Kronos Comment:

: I would posit that at some point in an iNtuitive child's life key information of a Sensory nature was received, processed and stored as reference units to the decision making function. The Sensory child either never relied upon these internalized processes or they were never developed to the degree that an iNtuitive child did. At some point iNtuitives began to rely on data of the world as it was "suppose" to operate and had less Need to rely upon Sensory information. That is to say that the internal process of the iNtuitive type is to rely on inference and induction rather than on observation and result.
: ********************************
: Walter Response:

: You describe a very likely developmental pattern. And I would guess that the most versatile little league players are those who can use most kinds of perception in a game, although they may have a preference for either sensation or intuition. The winning pitcher of the Little League World Series baseball game was also a straight "A" student.
: *************************************************************************
: Kronus Comment:

: In the Sensory adult this manifests as someone who can listen to the : description of a situation and finds the need to ask all sorts of questions about looks, sounds, acts, smells; whereas the iNtuitive adult relys upon an internal process of calling up similar situations and developing a sceneario of "what if-then" possibilities. Both may come to the conclusion that the situation revolve around a Duck but the key difference is that the Sensor, unlike the iNtuitor will not also initially consider that we may be talking about a Meganser. Do you find this to be supported by your survey on the integration of MBTI with Enneagram that you looked at in April of '97? Or is this outside the realm of your observations with that instrument?
: **************************************************************
: Walter Response:

: I think you are right about these two modes of inquiry. A primary difference between the person who prefers using their sensation function vs another person who prefers their intuition function is that the sensor is more in tune with present facts of the objects in the event that are given to them by their five senses in the present moment NOW. The intuitor must have some grounding in facts of the present situation, but uses these as a springboard to explore or rule out possibilities .

: It seems to me that people have three classes of perception abilities: 1) mainly use sensation with a little bit of intuition, 2) mainly use intuition and a little bit of sensation, and 3) use sensation and intuition as needed for the changing situation.

: ***********************************************************
: Kronus Comment:

: : Let me relate an instance that occurred during a soccer game yesterday. We were playing two thirty minute mini games to determine if our team was placed correctly in a recreational league of equal talent and ability. At the half-time of the first game while huddled with a group of boys aged 10 and 11 years old, I drew a semantic of the field with various positions (wing, forward, mid-fielder) represented by circles and "X"s. I then indicated the expected paths that the players were suppose to take if they were playing the position represented by the circle or X.

: Approximately half of the players were intent on the clip board with the drawings and checking routinely with eye contact to assure me that they were listening, fully a third were engaged elsewhere, playing with the grass, drinking water, looking at each other. The remainder were talking. Those who were talking were talking to me, as I was explaining the purpose of the picture, making comments such as: "you draw good", "that's a pretty picture", "how did you learn to draw so good"! My observation was that that half that were Sensing the information at half-time went out and applied the information and albeit not perfectly at least improved their performance.
: *************************************************
: Walter Comment:

: Those who were "sensing" the information (now) also understood or "intuited" the future possibilities of the plan that you drew for them on the clip board, and explained for them with words they understood. They were motivated to be play the game and be guided by your coaching. They probably already had better skills with motor-functions and had developed confidence in their skill level.
: ***********************************************************************
: Kronus Comment:

: The third who weren't looking at the clip-board began to notice the difference and at least appeared to understand that they could apply something different to their individual performances (NOTE: it was remarkable to see their faces as things occurred to them that I predicted the other team would do if they did what I was demonstrating). Of this second group I expect their performance to improve more slowly but at a steady rate.
: *******************************************************************
: Walter Response:

: I'm tempted to say that this group, who were not paying attention to you, might have several intuitives who preferred to use intuition instead of sensation. Their behavior suggests an inferior sensation function, so they would not be Sevens, Eights, or Threes.
: ******************************************
: Kronus Comment:

:
: Of the last group (20%)nothing seemed to change. This is particularly frustrating because this is a "low" achieving group to begin with and contains boys with physical limitations, attention deficits, and behavioral distinctions. Most coaches in my position would "write these kids off". They would make no provision for their continuing improvement and "bury" them on the field giving them the minimum, limited play time.
: ***********************************************************
: Walter Comment:

: This is very challenging.
: ******************************************
: Kronus Comment

: : First of all, coaching is stressful and I fall back on the rules: every player plays. Winning is more fun than losing, but I can't ever rely on the coaches cliche: "I have to think of the team!" I will move players around to positions that won't hurt overall performance. for example: I would never play someone at goalkeeper who was unable to catch the ball, or had fear of the ball or who was not willing to be there. I do play a strategy which puts my strongest players on the attack in order to score and conversely my strongest players play last line of defense to prevent the other team from scoring.

: My question is that on a fifteen player roster I always have three players who fall into the last category of Nothing Changing. They can be Extroverts or Introverts there doesn't seem to be a dominant correlation (naturally the ones I notice seem to have E as their dominant functions but I can think of others who a more likely to be I). My net-net-net question is this: Am I ever going to be able to make a breakthrough with these players? Sometimes in the past just when I saw them make the improvement they would do something else to counterbalance that improvement. Is there something else that I am neglecting between ENTP and ISFJ or between points 7,1,4,2,8,5-3,6,9?
: ***************************
: Walter Response:

: I'd look at it as an enneagram process problem, not a personality type situation. What is happening at Points Three and Six? Let's suppose that one of these players did improve with coaching and practice. Seems to me we should be able to see changes at Point Three, Six, and Nine when an event cycle is completed.

: First, at Point Three, by practice and focused attention there would first be some improvement in handing the ball.

: Point Six is the reaction point that is opposite to Three. So this person who improves would now show some noticeable greater confidence in themselves. They would be less fearful or anxious about being hurt. If they can give the soccer ball a good kick and help the team, they might feel more part of the team.

: If this person is concentrating more, moving more, being less fearful, then an improvement at Nine would be noticeable - in the best of all possible worlds. The person would be begin to be proactive. Instead of standing still and looking southward when the ball is in the north direction, they would keep their eye on the ball. And move towards it to play their position.

: Basically I'm suggesting PRACTICE to do the right thing to the ball at Point Three if they have it, to not be afraid of the ball coming at them at Point Six, and keeping their attention on the ball where the action is. And to look with their eyes at Nine before they start moving in a new direction, so they won't trip or run into something. They may need instruction to stop daydreaming on the field. Perhaps the child's parent can practice with them at home. Would it help to talk to the parent?

: Good luck in your coaching. It looks like a busy year coming up for you!
: *********

Talk about daydreaming! I had a really hard time with group sports - all the rules, all the traditions that I didn't understand. I was a hustler and put energy into trying, but with all the people around me I had a hard time focusing on the game and on what we were trying to accomplish. Too mush sensory input for a very sensitive intuitive person. I found that individual sports were much easier for me because I could daydream, hustle, and focus on myself and my surroundings to the degrees that I wished - not the coach or the other team members. Track and cross-country were a godsend to me. Maybe by talking to the kids that are not improving you can get a better idea of what they think their weak spot is - they know - probably needs translated though. You can practice and practice, but if you don't understand how and why the game is ran like it is - what's the point?

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: : Kronus Original Comment: : : : Walter: : : : The life of a SEVEN: Administrative meetings for the beginning of school, soccer practice, soccer mini-seeding tournament, writing a new lesson plan for World History (prep course), fine tuning Auto Mechanics course, Ninth grade advisor, Academic Decathlon advisor, Boy Scouts, Football parent, hiking, fly fishing, plus all the other details of married with children happy existence. In addition to the foregoing I am researching and attempting to understand the mechanics of MBTI and the Enneagram. My silent (SEVEN)prayer: "Grant me the serenity that they not ask, grant me the strength to smile politely if they do and grant me the wisdom to just say, NO! : : ********************************************************************** : : Walter Response: : : Hi Kronus: : : It looks like you are getting into the really busy season now. Your coaching work in sports and school will have a lasting benefit for some lucky young people. Good luck as you! : : I just watched the Little League World Series Baseball - Saturday on ABC TV. New Jersey's own Tom's River Little League won the championship game. Can you imagine the thrill of the youngsters and the coach to be there? The sense of teamwork and all those hours of practice was now worth it all. One of the young heros of Saturday's game was not in the regular line-up. He was not one of their top players, and had only hit one home run all year. He came in as a pinch hitter and hit two home runs. Heros somehow rise to the moment when the occasion demands their best. : : ****************************************************************** : : Kronus Comment: : : : My question after reading your last post centers on the foundation information of iNtuition v. Sensing. Upon what is the N function based? Is iNtuition founded solely on internalized information? Surely there is, a some point in a person's life, a base of Sensory information upon which cause and effect relationships are drawn. : : ************************ : : Walter Response: : : I see what you are getting at. I would say that both sensing and intuition information are both essential attributes of actual objects in events that occur in the real world of change and MOVEMENT where something is experienced and learning takes place. : : Intuition can't be based on thin air; it needs a sensory component. For example, when a baseball player steps up to the plate and faces the pitcher. In the Little League baseball game the pitcher threw the ball at 60 mph across the plate to the catcher, and the batter watched very carefully using all his perception (sensory and intuition function) to anticipate where the ball will be and if he can hit it. The Tom's River home-run hero hit his first homer of the game with two down and two strikes on him. It is impossible to speak meaningfully about sensation and intuition in this example if we forget that the whole point is to use the moving function at Point Three to achieve something. : : The pitcher moves to throw strikes, the catcher to catch balls, and the batter to hit balls. So both sensation and intuition are servants to the work of moving in a winning way. All of the sensations and intuitions are about the game taking place, and the result of each event cannot be predicted in advance. : : ********************************** : : Kronos Comment: : : I would posit that at some point in an iNtuitive child's life key information of a Sensory nature was received, processed and stored as reference units to the decision making function. The Sensory child either never relied upon these internalized processes or they were never developed to the degree that an iNtuitive child did. At some point iNtuitives began to rely on data of the world as it was "suppose" to operate and had less Need to rely upon Sensory information. That is to say that the internal process of the iNtuitive type is to rely on inference and induction rather than on observation and result. : : ******************************** : : Walter Response: : : You describe a very likely developmental pattern. And I would guess that the most versatile little league players are those who can use most kinds of perception in a game, although they may have a preference for either sensation or intuition. The winning pitcher of the Little League World Series baseball game was also a straight "A" student. : : ************************************************************************* : : Kronus Comment: : : In the Sensory adult this manifests as someone who can listen to the : description of a situation and finds the need to ask all sorts of questions about looks, sounds, acts, smells; whereas the iNtuitive adult relys upon an internal process of calling up similar situations and developing a sceneario of "what if-then" possibilities. Both may come to the conclusion that the situation revolve around a Duck but the key difference is that the Sensor, unlike the iNtuitor will not also initially consider that we may be talking about a Meganser. Do you find this to be supported by your survey on the integration of MBTI with Enneagram that you looked at in April of '97? Or is this outside the realm of your observations with that instrument? : : ************************************************************** : : Walter Response: : : I think you are right about these two modes of inquiry. A primary difference between the person who prefers using their sensation function vs another person who prefers their intuition function is that the sensor is more in tune with present facts of the objects in the event that are given to them by their five senses in the present moment NOW. The intuitor must have some grounding in facts of the present situation, but uses these as a springboard to explore or rule out possibilities . : : It seems to me that people have three classes of perception abilities: 1) mainly use sensation with a little bit of intuition, 2) mainly use intuition and a little bit of sensation, and 3) use sensation and intuition as needed for the changing situation. : : *********************************************************** : : Kronus Comment: : : : Let me relate an instance that occurred during a soccer game yesterday. We were playing two thirty minute mini games to determine if our team was placed correctly in a recreational league of equal talent and ability. At the half-time of the first game while huddled with a group of boys aged 10 and 11 years old, I drew a semantic of the field with various positions (wing, forward, mid-fielder) represented by circles and "X"s. I then indicated the expected paths that the players were suppose to take if they were playing the position represented by the circle or X. : : Approximately half of the players were intent on the clip board with the drawings and checking routinely with eye contact to assure me that they were listening, fully a third were engaged elsewhere, playing with the grass, drinking water, looking at each other. The remainder were talking. Those who were talking were talking to me, as I was explaining the purpose of the picture, making comments such as: "you draw good", "that's a pretty picture", "how did you learn to draw so good"! My observation was that that half that were Sensing the information at half-time went out and applied the information and albeit not perfectly at least improved their performance. : : ************************************************* : : Walter Comment: : : Those who were "sensing" the information (now) also understood or "intuited" the future possibilities of the plan that you drew for them on the clip board, and explained for them with words they understood. They were motivated to be play the game and be guided by your coaching. They probably already had better skills with motor-functions and had developed confidence in their skill level. : : *********************************************************************** : : Kronus Comment: : : The third who weren't looking at the clip-board began to notice the difference and at least appeared to understand that they could apply something different to their individual performances (NOTE: it was remarkable to see their faces as things occurred to them that I predicted the other team would do if they did what I was demonstrating). Of this second group I expect their performance to improve more slowly but at a steady rate. : : ******************************************************************* : : Walter Response: : : I'm tempted to say that this group, who were not paying attention to you, might have several intuitives who preferred to use intuition instead of sensation. Their behavior suggests an inferior sensation function, so they would not be Sevens, Eights, or Threes. : : ****************************************** : : Kronus Comment: : : : : Of the last group (20%)nothing seemed to change. This is particularly frustrating because this is a "low" achieving group to begin with and contains boys with physical limitations, attention deficits, and behavioral distinctions. Most coaches in my position would "write these kids off". They would make no provision for their continuing improvement and "bury" them on the field giving them the minimum, limited play time. : : *********************************************************** : : Walter Comment: : : This is very challenging. : : ****************************************** : : Kronus Comment : : : First of all, coaching is stressful and I fall back on the rules: every player plays. Winning is more fun than losing, but I can't ever rely on the coaches cliche: "I have to think of the team!" I will move players around to positions that won't hurt overall performance. for example: I would never play someone at goalkeeper who was unable to catch the ball, or had fear of the ball or who was not willing to be there. I do play a strategy which puts my strongest players on the attack in order to score and conversely my strongest players play last line of defense to prevent the other team from scoring. : : My question is that on a fifteen player roster I always have three players who fall into the last category of Nothing Changing. They can be Extroverts or Introverts there doesn't seem to be a dominant correlation (naturally the ones I notice seem to have E as their dominant functions but I can think of others who a more likely to be I). My net-net-net question is this: Am I ever going to be able to make a breakthrough with these players? Sometimes in the past just when I saw them make the improvement they would do something else to counterbalance that improvement. Is there something else that I am neglecting between ENTP and ISFJ or between points 7,1,4,2,8,5-3,6,9? : : *************************** : : Walter Response: : : I'd look at it as an enneagram process problem, not a personality type situation. What is happening at Points Three and Six? Let's suppose that one of these players did improve with coaching and practice. Seems to me we should be able to see changes at Point Three, Six, and Nine when an event cycle is completed. : : First, at Point Three, by practice and focused attention there would first be some improvement in handing the ball. : : Point Six is the reaction point that is opposite to Three. So this person who improves would now show some noticeable greater confidence in themselves. They would be less fearful or anxious about being hurt. If they can give the soccer ball a good kick and help the team, they might feel more part of the team. : : If this person is concentrating more, moving more, being less fearful, then an improvement at Nine would be noticeable - in the best of all possible worlds. The person would be begin to be proactive. Instead of standing still and looking southward when the ball is in the north direction, they would keep their eye on the ball. And move towards it to play their position. : : Basically I'm suggesting PRACTICE to do the right thing to the ball at Point Three if they have it, to not be afraid of the ball coming at them at Point Six, and keeping their attention on the ball where the action is. And to look with their eyes at Nine before they start moving in a new direction, so they won't trip or run into something. They may need instruction to stop daydreaming on the field. Perhaps the child's parent can practice with them at home. Would it help to talk to the parent? : : Good luck in your coaching. It looks like a busy year coming up for you! : : ********* : Talk about daydreaming! I had a really hard time with group sports - all the rules, all the traditions that I didn't understand. I was a hustler and put energy into trying, but with all the people around me I had a hard time focusing on the game and on what we were trying to accomplish. Too mush sensory input for a very sensitive intuitive person. I found that individual sports were much easier for me because I could daydream, hustle, and focus on myself and my surroundings to the degrees that I wished - not the coach or the other team members. Track and cross-country were a godsend to me. Maybe by talking to the kids that are not improving you can get a better idea of what they think their weak spot is - they know - probably needs translated though. You can practice and practice, but if you don't understand how and why the game is ran like it is - what's the point?

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