Posted by KJ Always (209.214.15.147) on April 28, 2002 at 23:22:13:
In Reply to: It's good that you're brainstorming, but I think you're thinking along the wrong lines posted by Bartholomew (63.214.75.15) on April 28, 2002 at 10:22:49:
It appears to me that your focus on the Enneagram is concerning "Trust", which is a very interesting prospective. Hey, I don't think someone wrote a book from the prospective of trust.
You say 2 is not altruistic. When they are healthy, yes they are. Riso, Palmer, Hurley, Hudson, Donson,... would tell you that. Even Mother Teresa is a good example of Altruism. A healhty 2 is the most altruistic person that impact our world! They are loving and giving without expecting anything in return and no need to validate their goodness of their loving image because they are motivated by real love for humanity that comes from within. I admire these people very much and how they impact community and society.
Sometimes, 2 are not busy loving people, instead, I had a friend who was busy putting on the image of love when she actually think badly of people, while smiling in their faces claiming to love them so much and misses them and say the opposite behind their backs. I don't call that love. I call that putting on an image of being loving, so people would validate her goodness because she does not feel that she is good, sometime. Man, it is a nightmare to see a 2 at their stress point because their sweet and saintly image turns demonic when she is not being externally validated by people that she is as wonderful (delusional) as she claim to be! I never want to be around that woman again!!!
It is very common for 7 and 2 to be mistyped that is why they include that in books when they deal with the topic of mistyping. Some 2 look very much like a 7. I know a few of them. I can't just go by books when it comes to the Enneagram, I allow various types to teach me what those words means in the books! This help me to be more effective in how I help people and having them to grow into a happy life. Seeing their transformation is fascinating and liberating. I have learned a lot from them.
My best friend is a 6 (phobic). Her issues is not about trusting her ability to fight. Her issues is about safety. She doesn't trust anything that does not appear to be safe. I can't relate to how much she doubt the safety of places that I never question. I understand the girl is a 6 and there is nothing I could do about her perceptions but not to marry a 6 man. ha, ha, ha. I am glad that I am able to help her to find the way to overcome self destructive tendencies and become successful and stable in life. She is my hero because she did all the hard work to get where she is now. It is a miracle of actualization. She wrote to someone telling them how I helped her with the Enneagram and think I should have the opportunity to become certified and help more people. She touched my heart with her words to my surprised. She is amazing on how much she have overcame her fears and issues of doubt. Wow! Her boyfriend is a 9w1.
Maybe, the issues about fighting is a man's prospective of the Enneagram. I taught her what a 6 is on the Enneagram, and she taught me what it means to be a 6. It is amazing how much fear they live in thought they may not show the extent of their fears. Trust and not to trust an evironment is safe is her way of expressing her yin-yang tendencies. I think it varies from 6 to 6.
It is okay if you think I am thinking alone the wrong lines. You have a right to your perceptions. I am not the type who think like fundementalist who says if you don't believe as I do, then you are wrong. I recognize the Enneagram to be a very broad concept that people can write many books about the Enneagram from many different perspectives. It is a matter of interpretation, just like thousands of Christian sects interpret the same Bibles in many different ways. I truly believe we are individualists and that is the beauty of humanity and diversity. I am not going to argue your perception of the Enneagram because you look at it from a different perspective than I do. I am glad my perception of the Enneagram works for me and help people to have happier lives if they chose it.
I know you say don't think of it in terms of triads, but I am a person who looks at the whole picture and look at the Enneagram from various angles because we are multi-dimensional species from what I have observe. If your views of the Enneagram works for you and get results of helping people to transform their lives than that is wonderful. I have learned a lot about myself in the process of helping others, and I am growing too. When people do things that does not make sense about that core personality type, then I look at it from many different angles and find the answers and is amazed!
I am sorry if it bothers you that I don't look at the Enneagram based on the Trust issues. That is not my thing, and I respect it as your perspective of the Enneagram. I will be looking for your book someday. I am more into intra and interpersonal relationships of the Enneagram because that is how I relate to the Enneagram. I look at the Enneagram from Riso-Hudson and Hurley-Donson prospective mixed with my own insight and experiences with real people and myself. I believe each personality type can have atleast 54 basic variations, not counting degrees and pathology. I don't claim to know it all, but I looking forward to learning more and more. My goal in life is to bring more harmony in the world, one person at a time. Peace begins with me, you and each individual. Looking forward to learning more of your theories of the Enneagram.
If you are an 1 with a need to be right and make others wrong, then I will say you are right about your perspective of the Enneagram. I am not into the win-loose approach when everybody experiences are valid. If you have any problem with what I say about the Enneagram, then I would advise you to contact Riso-Hudson and Hurley-Donson about the Triads. There are hundreds of books out there on the Enneagram with various perceptions, like the Fourth Way, The one who brung it to the US, That guy whose name is Bear, and so many more from various religious and spiritual foundation. If we debate about who is wrong and who is right, makes us no different from those religions who fight in the name of God or in the name of their religious institution. I hope you can understand where I am coming from, and it's okay if you do not agree with me. Thanks.
KJ Always
KJ Always
> "The Type 6 Enneagram" relates to trust. Type 6 is the base for the framework, and types 1 and 5 have already been fit in, AS THEY RELATE TO TRUST (Sorry for the capitals, but I can't do italics, and capitals are close enough). Type 5 decides what ideas to trust, and type 1 trusts his ideas strongly. They are two aspects of the same trait--trust as it relates to ideas.
> Optimally, we could rephrase types 7 and 2 as two aspects of trust as it relates to (something). Even more optimally, we could say that type 7 is concerned with deciding what to trust about that (something), and type 2 is concerned with trusting that (something) strongly, but perhaps that's too much symmetry to hope for.
> > It is easy to mistype 7 and 2 because they are both in the Positive Outlook Triadic group!
> When it comes to triads, I just say no.
> But that's a possible starting point. Being optimistic means that 7 and 2 tend to trust the world. The easiest thing would be to say that type 7 is involved with deciding what sensations to trust, and type 2 is involved with following those sensations. But that's not quite right. It fits type 7, because of their endless sensory experimentation, but not type 2; type 2 follows ONE sensation, that of love.
> Maybe we could say that type 2 is concerned with trusting love, and type 7 is concerned with deciding what to love. That's VERY similar to type 1 being concerned with trusting ideas, and type 5 being concerned with deciding what ideas to trust. How does that sound? It's a little misleading, though, because type 7 is concerned with deciding what
> One thing that would make it all fit is if type 2 wasn't just involved with loving other people. If type 2 was involved with loving anything external, it'd work. Have you read anything of that nature?
> > From my experience with the Enneagram and people, I discovered that they are actually connected to one another in some kind of way. Like the 7 and 2 are both in the Positive Outlook Group. People are similar and opposite simultanteously. If you disagree with me, it is okay because we all have a right to our own perceptions and can't truly control the thoughts of others, even though we may try to, sometimes. ha, ha, ha.
> I don't consider the Enneagram types as representing people. I consider them as representing motivations. I believe that each person has many motivations, so they have many, if not all, types (in varying degrees). We say that the motivation that dominates the person most is that person's type.
> > I agree with you on their oppositions, but I am going to give you an example of their similarities too. We all have the yin-yang and the Oneness in our connection from what I can see. I agree 5 & 1 are similar, but they are also opposite by 5 is introverted thinking (they think about their views and ideology) and 1 are extroverted thinking (they voice their views and ideology). 7 & 2 are very similar, but also opposites. 2 are primarily emotional and more into others, while 7 are primarily thinking and more into themselves.
> Actually, I'd say that 2's are very into themselves. They do what they do because they demand love and consideration, not for any altruistic purpose. Altruism is the type 1 thing.
> > I agree 4 and 8 are opposites, but they are both similar by being in the Reactionary Triad wanting intense responses from their mates. And 3 and 9 can be similar as far as they both are on the equilateral triangle prefering to repress their prefered center. They both don't openly show their negative emotions outwardly. You can compare 6 with others too because 6 are opposite and similar to the others, but they are also opposite and similar within their ownselves. Ha, ha, ha. I told my best friend who is a wonderful 6w7 that she is a Yin-Yang. I feel bad for her fearfulness. It has to be tornment! I remember when I was a little girl how tornmented I felt living in fear whenever I heard a loud motor cycle because I was afraid it was my bully cousin coming over to terrorize us again.
> > I see, we are thinking alone the same lines. I am impressed with your knowledge Bartholomew! I hope I helped figure out the situation between 4 & 8 both in the Reactionary Triad according to Riso. 3 and 9 are both on the equilateral triangle (so is 6), which means that they idealize their traid inside and outwardly. Six don't really need anybody to be compared to since they are their own Yin-Yang. Ha, ha, ha.
> Don't think in terms of triads. Think in terms of type motivations, and then try to relate that to trust.
> I agree with you on type 6. Here, though, it's useful to remember that the yin-yang is not phobic-counterphobic. The yin-yang here is trusting-nontrusting. Phobic means that one does not trust one's ability to fight, and instead trusts one's ability to run or hide, or the ability of others to protect one. Counterphobic means that one doesn't trust the protective ability of others or the ability to run or hide. It means that one trusts one's ability to fight. BOTH counterphobicism and phobicism are because of distrust of something else. They're both off the point.
> The point is that type 6's issue is deciding what to trust. Yin = trust, yang = distrust.