Posted by KJ Always (209.215.54.94) on April 30, 2002 at 02:18:36:
In Reply to: Re: Different perspectives of the Enneagram. posted by Bartholomew (63.214.94.108) on April 29, 2002 at 13:57:36:
I read your comments concering the 2:
KJ Always: You say 2 is not altruistic. When they are healthy, yes they are. Riso, Palmer, Hurley, Hudson, Donson,... would tell you that. Even Mother Teresa is a good example of Altruism. A healhty 2 is the most altruistic person that impact our world! They are loving and giving without expecting anything in return and no need to validate their goodness of their loving image because they are motivated by real love for humanity that comes from within. I admire these people very much and how they impact community and society.
Bartholomew: So how are they twos? The two motivation is receiving love, remember. If people are not looking for that, they aren't twos.
Perhaps they were once twos, but they abandoned that fixation and became typeless.
I believe you have issues with type 2, like some other people that I know who are type 6 also. I am beginning to wonder do any 6 like type 2. Of course, I know a few 6 that does like how nice 2 are to them. You know as good as I do that nobody becomes typeless, maybe in your theory they do. I guess, you don't believe a 2 can be selfless givers and helpers. Mother Teresa was a 2 until her last breathe. She was a symbol of love which 2 represent, but it is only an image when they are not healthy or balanced. When they are healthy or balanced, they are genuinely representing the true symbol of love.
Hey, I have my issues with imbalanced or average (Riso) type 2, but I appreciate their altruistic contributions in our world. So many abused children are feeling loved and special because 2 care enough to reach out to them. I don't care if it was altruistic or their desires to feel needed and loved from the children because I am happy that those children are getting the love and attention that they deserve. I am glad 1 are there also in Administrating these organizations, while the 2 are giving the love and attention. I don't have to become personal friends with 2, but I sure do appreciate them and their contribution. I have tears in my eyes when I hear the stories of how type 2 has made a positive difference in people's lives. I am happy to see the Social 1 & 6 (compliants like 2) and to see 9 out there is very impressive. Every type does contribute in their own ways, like 4 with crisis couseling.
Two are just as good as any Enneagram type, even though I may forget when I am upset with one of them. ha, ha, ha. I agree with the Enneagram teachers on the Altruism of healthy or balanced TWOs. If you disagree, then you are welcome to take it up with the teachers of the Enneagram and you are welcome to look within and discover why you don't think a 2 can't be altruistic without expecting anything in return but the joy of giving love?
One thing that I love about the Enneagram, it taught me how to appreciate people on a deeper level, even those people that may not feel comfortable being around them at times. I see the beauty of every Enneagram types, even the 6 who defends and help the underdogs of society, the ones that they identify with.
The motivation of healthy 2 is to give love without wanting anything in return. That is altruism of the 2. Whey they are healhty, I admire them very much and love how kind they are, but when they are imbalance and not nurturing themselves, then I pull away from them, which causes them to get mad at me, especially when I am not healthy and want to be more protective of my personal space, unfortunately. I admit, it takes a 2 to deal with my stubborness and help me to through some hard times in life and made my life better. I am grateful for 2 and their love that they give, whether or not, they are altruistic or not. I appreciate receiving their love and attention when I needed someone to care about me. I appreciate those nurses as well because they make me feel like I matter!
Do you think that low of 2 that you would say they are typeless when they become altruistic? How mean! They don't need that type of rejection from you. It is hard enough as it is when they try so hard to be good and helping people that don't return their love when they actually need love too, just like anybody else. So what if they give love in ought to receive love back, they are making many people feel special and loved that needs them. They love those that society would reject, they love the sick, ill, lonely, wounded, etc...
A 2 have hurt me who went to her stress point at 8, but I still appreciate all of her unaltruistic kindness and nurturing attention making me feel special and show me that I did matter. She listened to me. It is horrible how people hurt a 2 who works so hard to be loving and good or keep an image of goodness and love, so they can earn your love. It is sad what they go through, especially those 2 who were abused in childhood in some kind of way. I can't take their yelling at me when they are stressed out and feel unappreciated and unloved. I feel bad that I end up stop being friends with her and not validating her goodness. She is better off without me because I don't idealize her anymore, so she lost her powers to charm my heart, plus, I am more focus on my own growth and projects!
KJ Always
> > It appears to me that your focus on the Enneagram is concerning "Trust", which is a very interesting perspective. Hey, I don't think someone wrote a book from the perspective of trust.
> It's not my pre-existing focus. I am proposing a NEW way of looking at the Enneagram. I'm not invalidating the other ways, or arguing for a view that I've already put forth.
> Let's say that an imaginary group of people had been studying trees. This group of people had been looking at the height of the trees as a method of classifying them. Then someone in the group (let's call him Fred) came up with the idea of looking at the color of the trees. That new way of looking at the trees isn't Fred's "focus" on trees (he's just proposed it, remember), and nor does it mean that the people in the group should stop describing trees in terms of height.
> It DOES mean, however, that when Fred is talking about similarities among trees in terms of color, it's not relevant to say how they are similar or different based on height.
> >
> > You say 2 is not altruistic. When they are healthy, yes they are. Riso, Palmer, Hurley, Hudson, Donson,... would tell you that. Even Mother Teresa is a good example of Altruism. A healhty 2 is the most altruistic person that impact our world! They are loving and giving without expecting anything in return and no need to validate their goodness of their loving image because they are motivated by real love for humanity that comes from within. I admire these people very much and how they impact community and society.
> So how are they twos? The two motivation is receiving love, remember. If people are not looking for that, they aren't twos.
> Perhaps they were once twos, but they abandoned that fixation and became typeless.
> (I have no comment on the next four paragraphs)
> > Sometimes, 2 are not busy loving people, instead, I had a friend who was busy putting on the image of love when she actually think badly of people, while smiling in their faces claiming to love them so much and misses them and say the opposite behind their backs. I don't call that love. I call that putting on an image of being loving, so people would validate her goodness because she does not feel that she is good, sometime. Man, it is a nightmare to see a 2 at their stress point because their sweet and saintly image turns demonic when she is not being externally validated by people that she is as wonderful (delusional) as she claim to be! I never want to be around that woman again!!!
> > It is very common for 7 and 2 to be mistyped that is why they include that in books when they deal with the topic of mistyping. Some 2 look very much like a 7. I know a few of them. I can't just go by books when it comes to the Enneagram, I allow various types to teach me what those words means in the books! This help me to be more effective in how I help people and having them to grow into a happy life. Seeing their transformation is fascinating and liberating. I have learned a lot from them.
> > My best friend is a 6 (phobic). Her issues is not about trusting her ability to fight. Her issues is about safety. She doesn't trust anything that does not appear to be safe. I can't relate to how much she doubt the safety of places that I never question. I understand the girl is a 6 and there is nothing I could do about her perceptions but not to marry a 6 man. ha, ha, ha. I am glad that I am able to help her to find the way to overcome self destructive tendencies and become successful and stable in life. She is my hero because she did all the hard work to get where she is now. It is a miracle of actualization. She wrote to someone telling them how I helped her with the Enneagram and think I should have the opportunity to become certified and help more people. She touched my heart with her words to my surprised. She is amazing on how much she have overcame her fears and issues of doubt. Wow! Her boyfriend is a 9w1.
> >
> > Maybe, the issues about fighting is a man's prospective of the Enneagram. I taught her what a 6 is on the Enneagram, and she taught me what it means to be a 6. It is amazing how much fear they live in thought they may not show the extent of their fears. Trust and not to trust an evironment is safe is her way of expressing her yin-yang tendencies. I think it varies from 6 to 6.
> > It is okay if you think I am thinking alone the wrong lines. You have a right to your perceptions. I am not the type who think like fundementalist who says if you don't believe as I do, then you are wrong. I recognize the Enneagram to be a very broad concept that people can write many books about the Enneagram from many different perspectives. It is a matter of interpretation, just like thousands of Christian sects interpret the same Bibles in many different ways. I truly believe we are individualists and that is the beauty of humanity and diversity. I am not going to argue your perception of the Enneagram because you look at it from a different perspective than I do. I am glad my perception of the Enneagram works for me and help people to have happier lives if they chose it.
> See what I said at the top.
> > I know you say don't think of it in terms of triads, but I am a person who looks at the whole picture and look at the Enneagram from various angles because we are multi-dimensional species from what I have observe. If your views of the Enneagram works for you and get results of helping people to transform their lives than that is wonderful. I have learned a lot about myself in the process of helping others, and I am growing too. When people do things that does not make sense about that core personality type, then I look at it from many different angles and find the answers and is amazed!
> > I am sorry if it bothers you that I don't look at the Enneagram based on the Trust issues. That is not my thing, and I respect it as your perspective of the Enneagram.
> The whole point of my original post was, "What happens if we look at the Enneagram based on trust?" If you don't want to do that, why did you even bother responding?
> > I will be looking for your book someday. I am more into intra and interpersonal relationships of the Enneagram because that is how I relate to the Enneagram. I look at the Enneagram from Riso-Hudson and Hurley-Donson prospective mixed with my own insight and experiences with real people and myself. I believe each personality type can have atleast 54 basic variations, not counting degrees and pathology.
> I treat each personality type as a fixed, definite concept. The only variations are in the PEOPLE. If people have different characteristics, they respond to different motivations in different ways.
> > I don't claim to know it all, but I looking forward to learning more and more. My goal in life is to bring more harmony in the world, one person at a time. Peace begins with me, you and each individual. Looking forward to learning more of your theories of the Enneagram.
> > If you are an 1 with a need to be right and make others wrong, then I will say you are right about your perspective of the Enneagram. I am not into the win-loose approach when everybody experiences are valid. If you have any problem with what I say about the Enneagram, then I would advise you to contact Riso-Hudson and Hurley-Donson about the Triads. There are hundreds of books out there on the Enneagram with various perceptions, like the Fourth Way, The one who brung it to the US, That guy whose name is Bear, and so many more from various religious and spiritual foundation. If we debate about who is wrong and who is right, makes us no different from those religions who fight in the name of God or in the name of their religious institution. I hope you can understand where I am coming from, and it's okay if you do not agree with me. Thanks.
> It's not a matter of agreement or disagreement. Metaphorically, I invented backgammon (representing the type 6 Enneagram) and offered to play a game, and you responded with chess strategy (representing the traditional Enneagram). I'm not disagreeing with your chess strategy (traditional Enneagram), but I'm saying it's inappropriate for the purpose of backgammon, which it is.