Posted by KJ Always (209.215.55.172) on May 01, 2002 at 08:28:01:
In Reply to: Riso wrote these, not me. posted by Emily [nt] (68.13.146.250) on May 01, 2002 at 00:03:46:
Emily, I recognized those messages from Riso's book: The Wisdom of the Enneagram. I think that is great that you put that on the board. It is thought provoking for finding the source of our reactions to things in the present.
I am not sure how to interpret my childhood messages when it comes to my mother. She always criticize me and I got the message that nothing I do is good enough, so I grew up feeling no matter how good my talents are, I am not quite good enough. I know computers, I don't feel I have good enought knowledge to persue a career in it. I have been told that I sing very well, I paint very well, etc..., but I know I don't do those things well enough to try to make a career out of them. I know no matter what, I will never be good enough for my mother positive words spokened about me. She would do anything for me, except say something kind about me to my face. She is a self-perservationist and that is my least focus in life.
I wish she would listen to me and appreciate who I am without criticism and trying to control me with her anger. I would like to know my feelings, my interests and my thougts matters too. I was the type of child who did not get in trouble, hardly ever. I was well behaved around my mother, but away from her, I am more funny and entertaining with or without people around. ha, ha, ha. I enjoy being in my own little world as I always have.
My mother once called me a "good samaritan" once out of anger. She never could understand why I care about people, even those who hurt me. I always love people and accepted them as they are without a need to judge them. I am the opposite of my mother. I mostly see what is good and Positive about people, and she sees what I have not done (ignoring what is good and positive about me). I have heard from people the good things that she says about me behind my back, but I need to hear those words. Life goes on. The sun will continue to rise and the moon will continue to shine.
I have noticed that Bartholomew is a very critical person. No matter what you say, if you are not speaking what he thinks is right, then it is wrong, even if it was the words by someone who is knows much more about the Enneagram than he does and have been teaching it for many years and thanks to Riso, the Enneagram is acknowledge as a science that has validity and reliability. I don't understand how one can think everybody else is wrong and he is the only one who is right, even if you speaking about your own Enneatype. I felt like sending post to you directly to Don Richard Riso and Ross Hudson and allow them to read those egotical words of one who thinks he knows the Enneagram better than they do.
I don't believe he is a 6, but then again, it is possible. Riso describe 6 messages very well. I am so proud of my 6 friend because she has learned to trust her own inner authority though she still may struggle. She does not have issues with trusting her ability to fight. I don't know any 6 being the way that Bartholomen described. I only know 6 to fight to survive if they are counterphobic, and they fight because they are loyal to their leader or external authority, like in a gang or the military. If Bartholomew is looking for someone to fight, I am sure there are a lot of 8s out there that would love the pleasure! ha, ha, ha. My twin brother is an 8 and believe me, he loved to start fights in childhood, just as Enneagram teachers say about 8 childhoods. My brother was no exception to that rule. ha, ha, ha. My cousin was our personalized bully! Ha, ha, ha.
I sometimes think Bartholomew is an 8 because he loves to debate people and he speaks about fight too often, and he does not agree with Riso & Hudson about 6. His reminds me of an 8 at the stress point at 5. Notice when you wrote about the Eight for Lost Childhood Messages, he wrote Six six six... Ha, ha, ha. Six don't fight because they trust themselves. That is their reaction to fear from what I read in the Enneagram books. It is the 8 who has confidence in their fighting ability and fighting! I know it is a waste of time to argue with Bartholomew, I know this from experience with others and observing him on the board. He is very intelligent and strong-willed, and I hope he will find positive ways to use his strength, instead of "going against" people. In Riso's book about the Hornevian Triad, 8 was listed as "going against people...", while 6 are considered as "compliant" instead of aggressive.
Bartholomew, if you have a problem with what I saw about the Enneagram, then be man enough to talk directly to the source of my knowledge and confront them since they are the ones who wrote it, instead of bullying the messengers who delivers their message of Enneagram knowledge. You are wasting your time criticizing us because we are not the ones who wrote the book "The Wisdom of the Enneagram" by Don Richard Riso and Ross Hudson. Simplicity and kindness is a good thing. Ha, ha, ha. I wish I could put you and my wonderful father in a room together to enjoy many hours of great debates together feeling you guys know more than each other. ha, ha, ha. Have a great day. We won't betray you because we are telling you the truth to your face. And it is okay to let down your ego and be vulnerable with us.
If you are a 1, it is okay to make mistakes and be wrong, because you are allowed to make mistakes, just like everybody else. You are good when you want to be. I have been up all night busy and have not slept yet, so I am going to sleep now. Take care of your self and consider peace as an option. I appreciate the 6 in my life: my sister, my bestfriend and many other friends that I had and relatives. I have 6 and 8 in my family. I have been close to one 8 who had an Anger problem, but when a 6 are not happy with people, they blame them, just as Riso say they do. Any questions anybody? I am going to sleep, since I have not had any sleep for about 24 hours.
KJ Always
> > > Riso says that our Unconscious Childhood Message is what we percieved from our parents growing up.
> > > Unconscious Childhood Messages
> > > Type One: It's not ok to make mistakes.
> > > Type Two: It's not ok to have your own needs.
> > > Type Three: It's not ok to have your own feelings and identity.
> > > Type Four: It's not ok to be too functional or too happy.
> > TOO functional or TOO happy? How come you don't say that type one's message is to make TOO MANY mistakes, or that type two's message is to have TOO MANY of one's own needs?
> > "It's not ok to be too functional or too happy" sounds a lot better than "it's not ok to be functional or happy."
> > I think your fourish egotism is getting in the way. There's no other reason you would make the type 4 message sound less bad than the messages of the other types by putting in moderating words like "too." Or if that was quoted directly from Riso, then HIS fourish egotism was getting in the way.
> > > Type Five: It's not ok to be comfortable in the world.
> > That's the type 6 message. Discomfort = mistrust of environment or self, remember?
> > > Type Six: It's not ok to trust yourself.
> > The type 6 message is that it's not ok to trust yourself OR your environment. 6's when counterphobic trust themselves a lot. They trust their ability to fight.
> > > Type Seven: It's not ok to depend on anyone for anything.
> > Also type 6. That's synonymous with "It's not ok to trust anyone."
> > > Type Eight: It's not ok to be vulnerable or to trust anyone.
> > The type 8 message is that it's not ok to be vulnerable. Mistrusting people is part of type 6.
> > > Type Nine: It's not ok to assert yourself.
> > > And then there are the Lost Childhood Messages for each type, that we do not hear as children, that Riso thinks becomes the central issue in our lives. We want to hear these things more than anything else. When someone we know says our particular message, either directly or indirectly, we feel very close to them but don't know why.
> > > Lost Childhood Messages
> > > Type One: You are good.
> > > Type Two: You are wanted.
> > > Type Three: You are loved for yourself.
> > > Type Four: You are seen for who you are.
> > > Type Five: Your needs are not a problem.
> > > Type Six: You are safe.
> > > Type Seven: You will be taken care of.
> > How is this different from the type five lost childhood message?
> > > Type Eight: You will not be betrayed.
> > six six six six six six.
> > > Type Nine: Your presence matters.