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Re: Extraverted Fives
Re: Extraverted Fives
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Posted by Copperhead on December 17, 1998 at 17:38:36:
Hello Dafyd, I wanted to respond to your post before it got too buried in
this fast-moving message board, because I think your question
helps cut to the heart of the enneagram-MBTI debate. I have
been quite busy lately, and most of the time I've been spending
on enneagram theory has been devoted to Walter's theories, as
you may have noticed. So I hope no one is annoyed if I post
this to the top. > > Likewise, consider three type Fives I personally know:
> > 1. Myself, I am an INTP (=IT-EN-IS-EF), type Five.
> > 2. My girlfriend is an ENTP (=EN-IT-EF-IS), type Five.
> > 3. "D." as listed above is an ISTJ, type Five. > I would have said on theory that an Extravert Five was very unlikely.
> Could you explain how your girlfriend is one?
> (To clarify, I'm seeking an explanation, not doubting your typing.) > Dafyd Let me begin by stating that it is obvious that Fives, as
a group, show a very strong preference for introversion,
so I don't blame you for any doubt that you might have. My girlfriend is an ENTP, and thus an extraverted intuitive.
There is no question about this. She is the type of person
who is riveted by things in the outside world (extraverted),
but especially by new ideas (intuitive). She is very interested
in science, especially physics. Many people probably imagine
that an ENTP would very likely have a Seven connection, as Tal
suggested in another post. As a matter of fact, I myself have
known a few Sevens who also become excited by new ideas
in a fashion similar to the ENTP (some *were* ENTP's). I have
known one or two Sevens who have even been excited by science.
Indeed, there are some similarities between the way of thinking
of Fives and that of many Sevens, such as curiosity and an interest
in new ideas. However, there is a difference, I believe, between the Five's
and the Seven's curiosity and enthusiasm for science. At a
deep level, the typical Seven views science, like most things,
as a form of amusement, and will accordingly retain a certain
degree of levity when discussing the subject, even if she has
made science her life. On the other hand, a Five will, slowly
but surely, begin to identify with her ideas and work. Therefore,
although she may display enthusiasm like a Seven, she will
also tend to be very serious about the subject, unlike the
Seven. My girlfriend falls squarely in the latter catagory.
Without going too much deeper, let us just say there is a
noticeable degree of contentiousness and other Fivish
emotional traits, which indicate to me conclusively that
she is every bit as much a Five as she is an ENTP. Still, this cries for explanation, because the textbook
description of the Five is that of a person who is
compulsively private and generally feels drained by the
world. This description certainly invites comparison
with Jung's introverted type. Yet, here we have an ENTP
type Five. I can't claim to have a complete solution to
the dilemma, but I will offer what insights I have. First
of all, she is, paradoxically, very much a private person,
even if she is extraverted. Secondly, she has a rather weak Six-wing, not the moderate
Four-wing with which many people, I believe, have come to
associate with the typical Five (especially on the internet).
The purer form of Five, like the Five with a Six-wing, in
general, is not as introverted as the Five with a moderate-
to-strong Four-wing. Thirdly, recall that a Five is largely interested in understanding
how the *world* works -- and this orientation theoretically can
(and evidently does) sometimes translate into an extraverted
attitude. Lastly, she shows strong dynamical (stress and security
arrow) tendencies. That is to say, she tends to move either
to point Eight or to Seven quite readily. In fact, on the RHETI,
points Eight and Seven were her third and fourth strongest
scores (Five was first and One was second). I believe these
dynamical tendencies help to explain the extraversion, insofar
as both points Seven and Eight clearly tend to be extraverted. (*** As a side note: I have come to correlate her strong
dynamical tendencies with the fact that she has a rather
weak wing. I postulate that, in general, a relatively strong
wing tends to "ground" the basic type, making movement
along the arrows less important overall in the personality.
This is partly because the more contradictory nature of
a stronger-wing type tends to reduce dynamical movement,
and partly because whatever dynamical movement does
occur, occurs partially along the arrows of the wing --
thereby diluting the importance of the movement along the
arrows of the basic type.
On the other hand, a person with a relatively weak wing
will have a much greater tendency to move along the arrows
of the basic type because [1] the less contradictory nature
a purer type makes dynamic movement more likely in either
a stress or security situation, and [2] when movement occurs
it occurs almost totally in the arrows of the basic type.
I submit this strictly as a hypothesis. However, it does fit
some of my personal observations. ***) So what can we conclude about this? First, let us
acknowledge that as far as direct Jungian assignments
go, the assignment of IT to point Five was one of the two
most plausible (EF to point Two being the other plausible)
assignments. Moreover, the correlation between the
introverted attitude, considered alone, and point Five, seems
even stronger. And yet, despite the strong correlation,
we still are able to produce counterexamples. As I have
maintained, there is a connection between MBTI and the
enneagram -- of that there is no doubt. But I argue that
this connection is extremely complex, and no simple
formula will (as of yet) hold it. Unfortuately, the Grand
Unified Theory of Personality still eludes us. Peace, --- Copperhead
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