Posted by Walter on December 30, 1998 at 16:27:23:
In Reply to: Re: Everyone has 2 MBTI type functions posted by Perciever on December 29, 1998 at 11:51:51:
Walter's First Question:
Perciever, did you have a conscious motivation for using your 3rd and 4th functions, or was it a playful discovery, or something else?
****************************************************
Perceiver's Answer:
It started in sports. Introverted Intuition in sports doesn't work well! I would say sports and exercise in general brought back an awareness of the physical. I think what really opened it up was acquiring two 9 ISFP friends. We could read each other easily and our functions rather complemented each other. Then reading Keirseys descriptions of the 4 temperament behaviors and functionality brought an intellectual awareness and cohesion to it all. Your posts added a lot of unique food for thought also.
Extroverted sensing differs vastly from introverted sensing. It seems ES experiences the sensation for what it is in the moment. It is fluid. IS tends to make models and put sensation in a box. ES is very gratifying in the moment, yet it retrospect it doesn't seem as great as when it is happening.
IS is the opposite. For example I made 'bourbon balls' with my ESTJ father over the holidays. I was in 3rd-introverted feeling & 4th-extroverted sensing mode. I just flowed with the recipe which involved hand mixing of sticky ingredients. Just do it! They turned out great. My father made a horrible mess as he had no model or prior experience with the recipe. Thus I would attribute ES to creativity, grace and dynamicism. IS to models, diagrams & stats.
One thing does happen though when you focus a lot on 3rd & 4th, the 1st becomes weaker.
I would say my introverted iNtuition primary function was strongest when associating primarily with other intuitives and paying details minimal attention. Honestly, though INTX's are in a minority, so developing sensing functions helps in relating to the majority of people. What about you Walter, any experience with the introverted sensing, extroverted feeling functions of the INTP stack?
*****************
Walter's Answer:
1)
The MBTI statistics from the new 1998 Manual (The National Normative Sample of Adults has 3,009 adults) supports your observation about the INTX (and INFX). I give the definition for each MBTI type in terms of its Dominant (first) and Auxiliary (second) Jungian function-attitude (process) of consciousness. For example, ISFP is Fi-Se. This is 6-7 or enneagram point Six with a Seven wing on the Enneagram of Consciousness process model for information.
ISTJ: 11.6%...ISFJ: 13.8%.....INFJ: 1.5%.....INTJ: 2.1%
Si-Te..............Si-Fe................Ni-Fe.............Ni-Te
8-1..................8-2..................9-2..................9-1
ISTP: 5.4%....ISFP: 8.8%.......INFP: 4.4%.....INTP: 3.3%
Ti-Se..............Fi-Se.................Fi-Ne..............Ti-Ne
5-7.................6-7....................6-4..................5-4
ESTP: 4.3%....ESFP: 8.5%......ENFP: 8.1%...ENTP: 3.2%
Se-Ti..............Se-Fi..................Ne-Fi.............Ne-Ti
7-5..................7-6.....................4-6................4-5
ESTJ: 8.7%...ESFJ: 12.3%.....ENFJ: 2.5%.....ENTJ: 1.8%
Te-Si.............Fe-Si.................Fe-Ni..............Te-Ni
1-8..................2-8..................2-9..................1-9
2)
Now I will recall my development of the four Jungian functions and eight Jungian function- attitudes.
I tested as an INTJ (Ni-Te) in my early thirties. This was consistent with my role as supervisor of an electrical engineering group that was pushing the limits for measuring the so-called transmission parameters for analog linear telecommunications. A few years later I tested as an ENTJ (Te-Ni) and this was correlated with developing more leadership skills in a non-profit church organization. During my mid-life transition, I found myself enjoying photography with a 35 mm SLR camera - and making good use of my Se extraverted sensation function-attitude. But I used it to create or craft "still-life" images of nature. Later on, Fe became a higher priority to develop. I tested as ENFJ (2-9) at seminary. Now I come out as NF whenever I take the MBTI or Keirsey test. I don't worry too much about the J-P, or E-I. I just assume that I can use them as needed by the work at "hand" with the Enneagram Point Three learned moving function. As an NF, NT is still important for me, but the boundaries and boxes for "T" information are not taken as seriously - although the principles to which they point are taken seriously, as well as the evidence for them through the five senses.
Now lets take a flashback to childhood. I remember that my Se function at Point Seven was very reliable. Wisdom comes to us though the senses - as Joan Erikson (wife of Erik of psychosocial development fame) points out in her book "Wisdom and the Senses - The Way of Creativity", Norton, 1988. Se covers the five senses that carry stimuli from the real world into our mind. Of the "see, hear, taste, touch, and smell" external senses - sight and sound are my first and second sense strengths.
As a curious child, I walked the country fields with my Point Three Me moving function, and observed sights, sounds, touch, taste and smell.
My objective "insight" at Point Nine with differentiated Ni is based on the experience of "outsight" seeing real objects Se and their patterns Ne and possibilities in the world. This is the habit or preference that served me well as a curious child and a curious enginneer/scientist who got paid for having the same fun. Jung commented that we are paid in cash for our Persona! The question is "how real is it?"
So far I have not mentioned the empirical introverted sensation function-attitude (Si) that is dominant-first place at Point Eight, but automatic/unconscious-fourth place at Point Four - and in 3rd place when Point Six (or Fi) is dominant.
I was positively oriented to both my mother and father as a child, which is consistent with Riso's correlation (for my case - at least). My instinctive needs were taken care of. However, I was aware that my physical gut strength (Si) was only average. I remember playing softball in fifth grade with the six and seventh grade boys - and realizing that I could not hit a ball as hard or far as the bigger boys.
Some sluggers were typically Type Eightish, and some were inclined to bully the kids. Other sluggers were Type Threes. As I "stood" in the outfield, I "understood" that my mental abilities to learn, know understand would be where I would have a chance of scoring in the game of life. Basically I used my energy prudently. I did have good balance and could run on the top of bridge railings without falling off. I saw no career potential there.
I find that I can use my Eight wing when it is needed. My Nine score is around 24, and my Eight score is at the median on RHETI. Eight Si and Nine Ni are unipolar opposites, so both cannot coexist simultaneously. But they can take turns - just PAUSE and place attention- it's that simple ! They require a different function, but both are aimed in the same inward direction towards its source of information. Since Intuition is my first function, then Nine's first Ni function-attitude and Four's first Ne function-attitude are both present. Again we need to pause to separate one from another - otherwise confusion reigns! There was a period during midlife transitions when I lived in the Emotional Center and experienced Ne and especially its bipolar opposite Si (fourth function-attitude for matters of the heart). This is normal when experiencing the death of a parent or breakup of a marriage.
So Perciever, as you and others report (Brian recently), we get to use all our functions whether we want to or not. Through the School of Life we learn to trust our new functions, and experience life as more whole and complete. I like your challenge recently - you said why not start using our other functions consciously sooner - rather than later. Yes, words so wise. But often hard to do. Discussion groups, a message board like Becca, close friends .. and many other things make it possible. The learned information at Points One (principles - ethics - logos, common descriptive truth) and Two (prescriptive good, common values, morals, eros, what is desired or desirable) are very fundamental.
I look on the 3-7-8 "Hornevian Moving Against" Triad as being grounded in the senses in a feedback cycle - with Point Three giving our muscle sense, Point Seven giving the five senses for receiving stimuli from objects in the world, and Point Eight giving a sense of viscera and internal instinctive energy.
Perciever- you said
"For example I made 'bourbon balls' with my ESTJ father over the holidays. I was in 3rd-introverted feeling & 4th-extroverted sensing mode. I just flowed with the recipe which involved hand mixing of sticky ingredients. Just do it! They turned out great. My father made a horrible mess as he had no model or prior experience with the recipe. Thus I would attribute ES to creativity, grace and dynamicism. IS to models, diagrams & stats."
Yes, just do it! There is something about the intelligence of the moving function at Point Three in the Emotional Center. I would say that ES at Seven has a ready partner with EM at Three via the 3-7 secondary arrow. What you say of IS found to be correlated with I and S in MBTI Type. Often ISTJ types refer to memory skills. Memory is not a separate function for Jung - but memory and will are facilities that support the function-attitudes. Moving memory or kinesthetic memory seems to be a different kind of memory. It can be correlated with the limbic system - which is central to emotions and the emotional Center.
Moving is the function for mimic and imitation that Gurdjieff said was completely missing from modern psychology. The learned moving function is the instrument for intentionality. It is a synthesis between real and subjective information. As such it completes the Mortimer Adler's Triad of object types - and eliminates subject-object dualism with intentional feedback to form the triangle for Gurdjieff's law of three forces.
I didn't take time to comment on Keirsey, but I found his inclusion of movement and action to be quite insightful. It hard for an athlete to just "do it" - without learned moving function. This is why I use Jung's four functions plus the fifth moving function. I review Keirsey's latest book in the December (Issue 3) of the Enneagram and the MBTI at that web-site.
All for now,
Walter