Posted by korogoro on January 24, 1999 at 00:57:09:
In Reply to: Re: Extraverted Fives posted by Copperhead on December 17, 1998 at 17:38:36:
>May I offer an insight in the Enneagram - MBTI discussion, in that the Enneagram gives us an explanation of a behaviour pattern which is more or less fixed, possibly even more grounded as time goes on.
On the other hand the MBTI methodology can modify as experience teaches us what works best in particular circumstances.
The scale of difference becomes much less and we move easier from one methodology to the other.
Korogoro
Hello Dafyd,
> I wanted to respond to your post before it got too buried in
> this fast-moving message board, because I think your question
> helps cut to the heart of the enneagram-MBTI debate. I have
> been quite busy lately, and most of the time I've been spending
> on enneagram theory has been devoted to Walter's theories, as
> you may have noticed. So I hope no one is annoyed if I post
> this to the top.
> > > Likewise, consider three type Fives I personally know:
> > > 1. Myself, I am an INTP (=IT-EN-IS-EF), type Five.
> > > 2. My girlfriend is an ENTP (=EN-IT-EF-IS), type Five.
> > > 3. "D." as listed above is an ISTJ, type Five.
> > I would have said on theory that an Extravert Five was very unlikely.
> > Could you explain how your girlfriend is one?
> > (To clarify, I'm seeking an explanation, not doubting your typing.)
> > Dafyd
> Let me begin by stating that it is obvious that Fives, as
> a group, show a very strong preference for introversion,
> so I don't blame you for any doubt that you might have.
> My girlfriend is an ENTP, and thus an extraverted intuitive.
> There is no question about this. She is the type of person
> who is riveted by things in the outside world (extraverted),
> but especially by new ideas (intuitive). She is very interested
> in science, especially physics. Many people probably imagine
> that an ENTP would very likely have a Seven connection, as Tal
> suggested in another post. As a matter of fact, I myself have
> known a few Sevens who also become excited by new ideas
> in a fashion similar to the ENTP (some *were* ENTP's). I have
> known one or two Sevens who have even been excited by science.
> Indeed, there are some similarities between the way of thinking
> of Fives and that of many Sevens, such as curiosity and an interest
> in new ideas.
> However, there is a difference, I believe, between the Five's
> and the Seven's curiosity and enthusiasm for science. At a
> deep level, the typical Seven views science, like most things,
> as a form of amusement, and will accordingly retain a certain
> degree of levity when discussing the subject, even if she has
> made science her life. On the other hand, a Five will, slowly
> but surely, begin to identify with her ideas and work. Therefore,
> although she may display enthusiasm like a Seven, she will
> also tend to be very serious about the subject, unlike the
> Seven. My girlfriend falls squarely in the latter catagory.
> Without going too much deeper, let us just say there is a
> noticeable degree of contentiousness and other Fivish
> emotional traits, which indicate to me conclusively that
> she is every bit as much a Five as she is an ENTP.
> Still, this cries for explanation, because the textbook
> description of the Five is that of a person who is
> compulsively private and generally feels drained by the
> world. This description certainly invites comparison
> with Jung's introverted type. Yet, here we have an ENTP
> type Five. I can't claim to have a complete solution to
> the dilemma, but I will offer what insights I have. First
> of all, she is, paradoxically, very much a private person,
> even if she is extraverted.
> Secondly, she has a rather weak Six-wing, not the moderate
> Four-wing with which many people, I believe, have come to
> associate with the typical Five (especially on the internet).
> The purer form of Five, like the Five with a Six-wing, in
> general, is not as introverted as the Five with a moderate-
> to-strong Four-wing.
> Thirdly, recall that a Five is largely interested in understanding
> how the *world* works -- and this orientation theoretically can
> (and evidently does) sometimes translate into an extraverted
> attitude.
> Lastly, she shows strong dynamical (stress and security
> arrow) tendencies. That is to say, she tends to move either
> to point Eight or to Seven quite readily. In fact, on the RHETI,
> points Eight and Seven were her third and fourth strongest
> scores (Five was first and One was second). I believe these
> dynamical tendencies help to explain the extraversion, insofar
> as both points Seven and Eight clearly tend to be extraverted.
> (*** As a side note: I have come to correlate her strong
> dynamical tendencies with the fact that she has a rather
> weak wing. I postulate that, in general, a relatively strong
> wing tends to "ground" the basic type, making movement
> along the arrows less important overall in the personality.
> This is partly because the more contradictory nature of
> a stronger-wing type tends to reduce dynamical movement,
> and partly because whatever dynamical movement does
> occur, occurs partially along the arrows of the wing --
> thereby diluting the importance of the movement along the
> arrows of the basic type.
> On the other hand, a person with a relatively weak wing
> will have a much greater tendency to move along the arrows
> of the basic type because [1] the less contradictory nature
> a purer type makes dynamic movement more likely in either
> a stress or security situation, and [2] when movement occurs
> it occurs almost totally in the arrows of the basic type.
> I submit this strictly as a hypothesis. However, it does fit
> some of my personal observations. ***)
> So what can we conclude about this? First, let us
> acknowledge that as far as direct Jungian assignments
> go, the assignment of IT to point Five was one of the two
> most plausible (EF to point Two being the other plausible)
> assignments. Moreover, the correlation between the
> introverted attitude, considered alone, and point Five, seems
> even stronger. And yet, despite the strong correlation,
> we still are able to produce counterexamples. As I have
> maintained, there is a connection between MBTI and the
> enneagram -- of that there is no doubt. But I argue that
> this connection is extremely complex, and no simple
> formula will (as of yet) hold it. Unfortuately, the Grand
> Unified Theory of Personality still eludes us.
> Peace,
> --- Copperhead