Posted by Dave on April 30, 1999 at 08:06:16:
In Reply to: Re: Meeting GOD via the enneagram posted by Tal on April 29, 1999 at 19:33:40:
> Interesting argument, Dave...
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Well, it's not an argument, just an idea.
> I don't believe you can necessarily divide the types' approaches to God by triads though...
> Let's take the first triad, which you say is comprised of types which approach the 'God of Philosophers'. If I understand you correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) you mean these types approach a God whose nature can be described or understood (to an extent) philosophically and so is more of an abstract concept than anything else. I think you run into the biggest problem when you lump 5's and 6's approach together. IMHO 5's and 6's reflect completely opposite ways of thinking, especially as pertains to matters such as God. I would agree that 5's generally seek the most reasonable explanation, and tend towards cold hard facts (hence the prevalence of 5 atheists), but 6's are the opposite of that--they embrace a conception of authority simply because it's authority, not because it happens to be reasonable. A six subordinates himself to God because he believes in God's omnipotence and power over matters; philosophical underpinnings are largely irrelevant. Sixes believe in the "laws of nature" in the sense that they look at whatever happens to be their belief as immovable and concrete, but that's largely out of fear of the structure collapsing under them, not out of philosophical considerations. I don't think you can ever lump 5 and 6's approach together (to me they represent the epitome of either end of the nature of belief).
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I don't see all 5's as focused solely on hard cold facts as much as objective observation, including their own intuitions. Many 5's I know are very sensitive and are looking to "warm" the world to make it more appealing, though they do it in an intellectual way. I like Dafyd's conception of a "Thinking God", very reminescent of the ancient Greek philosophical approaches.
As for 6's, authority is not their sole way of being. Questioning and doubt is more the issue with alot of 6's, because many have lost faith in any authority, and they follow authority only temporarily. Eventually they look for systems and laws to give them a sense of certainty. But, eventually they end up doubting that too. Therefore, since living beings can't be trusted, they don't look for a living God as a being, but rather as a process. It's similar to 5's in this regard.
> Then take the feeling center; to say these type view God in terms of relationship is misleading too, I think. The best approximation I can think of this is to say that their mentality towards God is one of give and take: "if I do this and that and it makes God happy, God will take care of me".
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Aren't all relationships give and take? Ask my wife!:)
It seems toi me Feeling center people relate to God best as a person. You can relate to a person, not a process. You can't have a meaningfull personal relationship with a process.
As for Fours, I don't think Fours fit very well into this dynamic. I think Fours tend more to have a sense of connection to God through artistic or creative mediums, or through beauty. But conversely Fours are almost always nihilistic when depressed.
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Connection is a better term, thank you! 4's long for connectioin and expression of their inner being. They are the most sacred in their religious worship because they are so deeply emotionalized and connected to a Higher Being (whether that be God, angels, art, their higher self, or whoever) who can understand them, since none of us mere mortals can. The point is it appears as a being they can relate to.
> Type 8 is interesting. The notion of an 8 believing in God is a paradox in itself: 8's hate submission, and most conceptions of God unfortunately involve submission to a large extent. I liked the way DEECEE summed it up in his reply to your post when he said that he believes in God when he wants to, not when God wants. That's typical of 8's; I agree with you when you say that they relate to God through force of will, but I think 8's capacity to submit in any case is stunted. When they 'believe' they're internalising the authority of God more than anything.
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DEECEE's answer was wonderfull! Even 8's that are devoted seem to have the attitude of, "God, help me please. But, if you won't, the hell with you I'll do it myself!".
> Ditto for 1's, who've internalised authority to the point where they are constantly appeasing the inner judge (who they often happen to label "God"). I think the important differentiation between 2/6 and 1/8 with respect to God is that with the former God is externalised, and in the latter internalised. But I don't know if I agree that 1's and 8's try to 'influence' God; if this is the case you can just as readily say that 2's try to influence God through appealing to him by good behaviour, and 3's via good work, and so on. As for 9's , I think their relationship to God is more similar to 6's than any thing else; they tend to merge with an idealization of God--submission is total under a veneer of unity.
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It general, all of us have these 9 approaches within us. We all try to influence the Universe in some way.
Assuming that God is always present to meet with, then if God seems distant, who moved? The enneagram shows us how we moved away (in our perception), and how to move back.
In the end I see that there are 3 ways to approach God:
1. As a person, which is the easist since we already know how to meet and relate with people.
2. As an impersonal entity (i.e. forces of nature), which is more difficult since we have to negate our personality and emotions (i.e. Nirvana through Yoga, or the totally objective mind).
3. As a nothing, which means the universe is devoid of any purpose and exists in randomness where chance is the only rule.
> That leaves 7's, whose view of God is largely of a big guy in the sky who likes wine and cheese and encourages them do whatever they want :)
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Must be the God of Heaven! Let's Party! Meet y'all there someday! :)
DAve