Posted by Tal on July 29, 1999 at 11:39:16:
In Reply to: Re: Wing basics for beginners posted by Ronnie on July 29, 1999 at 10:42:31:
> You're a five, aren't you?
Yes... pretty transparent, eh :)
> I don't usually try to proof myself by using complex senteces and explaining each and every point to the finest detail, and I'm no system builder either. I'll leave that to others. So, what I said wasn't "nine types exist, everything else must be true too", rather that if you use those nine types, wings, directions of integration and disintegration and levels of "healthy, average, unhealthy" you must accept to fact about wings. Otherwise the whole system just collapses. If you look at a brick wall and pull some bricks out of it, the whole thing falls down. It's either one whole brickwall, or then just a bunch of bricks and something else built with them.
> Practically all I see as true about the enneagram comes from my personal experience, what I've seen in myself and other people when I've dealt with them. To me the enneagram is just a tool for understanding people, I wouldn't be interested in it just as a system for very long.
Agreed... I don't think anyone interested in the Enneagram is interested in it purely as a system... If that's the case one might as well be studying ant colonies or stamp collecting (and I'm sure some do for that reason--especially Fives). On the other hand, precisely because the Enneagram is a tool for understanding people, which is such an important thing, it stands to reason one would want the best tool available. I don't think system building or improvement is ever undertaken with the purpose of "well let's just tinker for its own sake" but with a goal in mind. In this case the goal is the answer to the question: "how can the Enneagram be refined to provide an even better understanding of people?"
To which the answer may be unclear, but unless you think the Enneagram as it stands now provides a perfect picture of the human psyche, improvement is the key to furthering understanding.
> Finally, the answer to your question:
> I said "without explaining very well why those thinking otherwise are wrong". In another words, if it works, don't fix it. If you see why it doesn't, fix it and show others what's wrong about it.
Yes, that is my approach.
> If you just say "it ain't working, man" and just go away to get a beer or a cup of coffee, you're not helping much. (Helping is important. *L*)
You're relatively new to the board... I've posted my opinions on theory here many times. There is the question of redundancy though, so I don't think it fair or relevant to post long sermons every time someone new joins. If anyone is interested in my views or anyone else's, they're free to search the archives... that's what they're there for :)
> Yet in another words, if you have a better theory and can prove it, that's advancement. If you have a theory you've figured out just because you gotta have one of your own, with little validity to it, well, I suppose you know what I mean.
"Proof" is an impossibility when it comes to personality... I do believe the Enneagram is far from perfect, and yes, I have constructed theories which I believe are more accurate. But whether they really are or not I can't say (obviously I think so because they're mine, but this is the subjective-objective dilemma). Whether I coin theories because I want to be different (4) or because I seek power through knowledge (5) or desire truth to avoid condemnation (1) or [insert any other deep subconscious motivation here] is difficult to say. I think it's probably the Fiveish desire for understanding, but how can I be sure? For that matter how can you be sure that you as a Two are not really interested in the Enneagram as a tool to help you get close to people? If we could see clearly into our subconscious mind the Enneagram would pretty much be obsolete, no?
> I've seen that the wing theory I've mentioned seems to work, so I don't have a need to start monkeying around with it.
I have no objection to that. If it works for you, use it. I'll keep on monkeying around :)