Posted by Tal on August 01, 1999 at 09:37:30:
In Reply to: Re: Empathy = fear + identification? posted by Ronnie on August 01, 1999 at 08:37:58:
> Hearing people explaining something that completely alien and telling why that something is utterly bad...hmmm. What's about this two bashing anyway? Now that at least four and seven have been found bad, is it time to show the world the utter meaness, evilness, corruptioness, rotteness, devilishness, bad breath and lack of deodorant in type number 2?
> Ok, you've had bad experiences with twos, believe or not I have too. As well as with sevens. And fives, can you imagine? Terrible threes, intolerable fours, nasty sixes, nines that have to dragged around, that eight you wish wasn't born and the anal one to top it all. Aim at a type number, shoot it down and proof just how bad everyone of that type must be, is that in question here?
Not at all. The question posed was about the psychological mechanisms of the Two. Hence, so was the answer. Had the question been about Threes or Eights, the answer would have been to suit. And it's not a question of deliberately aiming for Twos. The mechanism behind every type is basically a negative one, for better or worse (and it can quite easily be for the better, when it's overcome).
As for my personal reaction to Twos... that's something I take care not to confuse with my objective judgement (to the extent it can be objective). I'm well aware no type is any better or worse than any other. However, incompatibilities exist. It's true that no one should have any problem getting along with a healthy individual of any type; but at the average levels, certain traits bother certain people more than others. For instance, it's not a stretch to see how Twoish intrusiveness could egg on a Five (or conversely, how Five reticence would annoy a Two).
A person shouldn't have to pretend he can get along with everyone. There is a difference between saying "type X is evil" and "I've found that I don't get along with most members of type X". Naturally the caveat is that even if you have certain preconceptions, you should remain open to the very real possibility that you may get along very well with the next person of that type who comes along (hell, you could fall in love with them.)
> I'd just like to remind that each type is capable of using its strongest quality for both good and bad. Twos can be genuinely empathic or use that talent to fulfill their own needs. Fives can invent marvellous things or just use their thinking capability to boast their own ego and importance.
No question. But it's worth remembering that the positive aspects of personality, to the extent they have type, are off-shoots of the initial obsession. Healthy Twos wouldn't be so genuinely giving and caring had they not overcome the need to help simply to be loved; healthy Eights could not have developed their superb leadership abilities had they not at some stage felt the need to dominate. Of course, it may be possible for a person to grow up healthy without experiencing obsession at all, but personally I find it all but impossible to picture. The human psyche is such a frail thing that in practice I think a healthy person is one who has fought himself and won, and not one who has never had to fight the battle at all.
> I don't mean no offense here, but the *generally* most reclusive type assessing how possible it is connect to others' feelings and evaluating the *generally* most other-oriented types capability of doing it...sounds like a two inventing something completely impersonal and theoretical! ;)
Nothing wrong with either of those. You could say that the Five would be more likely to be unqualified to talk about feelings and the Two about logic, which is true, but this is just a question of probability based on preference, not on any concrete laws.
> It's true that unhealthy twos (especially 2w3, in my experience) can be just f-- disgusting. But I'd also like to remind that a person who can most easily recognize an unhealthy two is a healthy two.
So unhealthy 2w3's are more disgusting than 2w1's? Am I to take that to mean you think a certain type better than another? No. Because this is a question of preference, again, as opposed to judgement.
I agree that a person of one type can usually easily identify another person of the same type. But I'm not sure it's that much easier than passing judgement on other types. I personally find it easiest to type 7's, 8's and 2's (probably because they're generally extroverted and you get to see more of their behaviour).
> Talking about fulfilling needs, I can very honestly say that when I'm acknowledging I have needs of my own, I'm taking care of them, then I can genuinely work in the interest of the other. When the needs I personally have are being taken care of, I can be genuinely altruistic. Don't forget that twos are around to care about others. Or maybe I should just stop being there for people who need someone? Hell, who cares about them anyway, everyone take care of yourself and get what you can! (Oops, that's me being 2c8)
You're taking this far too personally. I doubt you'd be raising the same objections had this thread been about another type. Again (once more), I am/was not saying Twos are bad people. They are not, any more so than any other type is likely to be. I was giving my take on the Two mechanism. Which is as evil a mechanism as any other when you think about it, because all type mechanisms fundamentally exist to sacrifice long-term happiness to short-term pain avoidance.
> It makes me shiver when I hear someone saying "I resent type x people". I've had very nasty experiences with sevens, but I still don't resent them. Everyone is an individual to me and besides that, an individual having a potential to grow.
Then you're more capable of remaining open to people than I am. I don't disassociate myself either from 2's or any other type on the grounds of type. But my thinking (this is not entirely within my control) goes that if I am aware a person is a Two, I am not likely to be able to get along with them. I'll try, but more often than not I'll fail. To which you can say "well sure, if you don't think you will, you won't!" but again, certain traits and character structures are incompatible. People don't always get along with each other.