Posted by bev on August 01, 1999 at 14:48:31:
In Reply to: A two talks about it all, to Bev and Ed... posted by Ronnie on August 01, 1999 at 08:37:51:
>First off thank you for your feedback...and i hope i haven't offending anyone...particularly all the 2's out there because i have had some very postive relationships with 2's as well...i find these situations distressing because i have to work with these two particular people on a daily basis, we are all therapists who work with sexual offenders which is emotionally stressing work as it is.. and because i believe that in order to do this work effectively, we must be aware of ourselves and our impact on others... in fact it is one of the basic premises of therapy for the people who commit sexual offences... victim empathy... attempting to understand the impact of their behaviour on the person they have victimized....and i feel if we as therapists are not willing to do the work of personal growth ourselves and with each other, because personal growth stems from understanding our interactions with others,then how can we espouse such a painful process to those we work with...to me it sound hypocritical..
anyway...to move on
i agree with your statement ED that you wouldn't call it healthy because it feels anything but healing...i suppose that because the 4 in me, when stressed, walks away from what i called dismissive situations feeling that i have done something wrong and then i spend a great deal of time and effort and energy attempting to understand my role in the situation, and then, when i attempt to talk with both these people who are by the way 2w3, i found that neither had experienced any distress about the interaction and neither had given it another thought... in fact, one told me, (my boss actually) that perhaps i needed a change... i suspect this harshness stemmed from the fact that the men we were working with were expressing concerns about him ( read rejecting )and making positive comments about me...an experience i found painful as i felt stuck in the middle and responsible for him feeling hurt (although he never acknowledged such feelings, so this empathy stemmed from my listening to his responses to the men and watching the changes in this presentation of self)...in fact, when i did talk with him about his comment later and perhaps work had been tough for him lately, he did not acknowledge that this was so verbally but has since decided not to remain involved in working with the sex offender program...very confusing to me, as intuition tell me differently... or am i slipping into arrogance... i don't know nor do i feel i will ever know... oh well
i hope that i am not sounding bitter as you suggest pseudoname! but perhaps i need to look at that possibility.
thanks for the feedback again
bev
Good questions, IMHO. First of all, the question about twos being "empathic". I see it that when a 2 is healthy, s/he is empathic--meaning there are good intentions. When unhealthy, the ability to connect to others' moods or feelings doesn't go away, but the motivation and reasons for doing it...I wouldn't call it "empathy" because it's such a positive word and there isn't nothing much positive about unhealthy twos.
> About the ability to feel others' feelings. It isn't about ESP, telepathy or anything else. It's just intuitively (Derf, if you're reading this, in the dictionary sense ;) knowing what the other is feeling. Mostly reading body language, hearing changes in voice, word selection, pauses, ever so tiny changes in facial expressions and so on. It's much more difficult on a webboard, but even here what seems to be the main point, what words are emphasized and so on. Besides that (sorry all fours!) feelings aren't that unique to people. Everyone has all feelings and you just sort of have and idea what some situation makes someone feel, check (this is all somewhat unconscious) if it seems to be so and go on from there. We can't never feel *exactly* what someone else feels, but even deep understanding and someone caring is more you usually need. (I've been at the receiving end, too)
> Bev, those two *S* sound unhealthy. They think they know what's good for you, that's not empathy, since they are NOT connected to your feelings. It's one way how twos disintergrate to eight, we think we're so damn good and caring we can impose ourselves on others. Actually I think it's more of a 2w3 trait, at least in me my 1 wing makes me very aware of that and I become unhealthy in other ways, I think I show the low traits of eight more. (Maybe just because I'm a man with a personal history of having to appear like one, eight traits are more familiar to me)
> Anyways, if they were healthy and genuinely empathic, they'd ask you how you feel. Or if they can help you. I think the ultimate sign of a healthy two is that s/he gives a possibility that s/he can't help you. That is, "I want to help you but if you don't need my help, I'll go away."
> My point is that NO, twos aren't necessarily good to you, even though they might appear so.
> Ed,
> a relationship with a less healthy two? I could write a similar opinion of sevens. Not all twos are like that. Btw, I think you did a terrific job in explaining how it's possible to "know" the others feelings, but I wouldn't think I'd make a good dog...*WOOF WOOF!* Nope, doesn't sound right. *L*
> Seriously, anyone unhealthy is a pain to be with, no matter what the type is.
> Ronnie, definitely a 2w1